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The following is a transcript that has been created using AI technology. Please forgive any grammatical imperfections it may have.
Sam Mosse
Everyone's a risk manager, so everyone actually needs to be able to understand risk.
Camilla Love
Welcome, everyone back to another episode of Shares Not Shoes an Insider's Guide to Careers in Finance. I'm your host, camilla Love, founder of F. Three future females in finance. Chersal Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview some of my favourite people, all with one thing in common they work in finance. We lift a lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance, and arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you. I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories, will be open and honest and will inspire you. So let's go. I'm really looking forward to chatting with our guests today, as she has one of what I believe is the most interesting roles in the funds management industry at an organisation and brand that is synonymous with the Australian funds management industry, this fabulous person holds the role of Chief Risk Officer. And as you all know, risk is critical for any type of return in business, but it's the management of risk and taking calculated risk that creates true business success. So, without much ado, welcome today to Sam Mosse.
Sam Mosse
Thanks, Camilla, it's really great to be here. And thanks for that very generous welcome.
Camilla Love
No problem, it's all very true. Sam is the Chief Risk Officer at Perpetual and Perpetual is a fund manager that's been established since 1886. Oh, my gosh, that is so long. And I don't know, a lot of companies have been around for that long and the business today manages nearly $100 billion. So I'm super keen to find out about your career, what makes you tick and why you bound out of bed each morning to do your role in risk. So, thanks so much for joining us in today's episode, Sam. So, first question, Sam, tell me a little bit about what you do and a little bit about you as a person.
Sam Mosse
So I'll start with this second one. So, a little bit about me as a person. So, I'm a mom, firstly, and I have two what are adult children by age still progressing into adulthood? More generally, I would say I have had a background. I started my career as a chartered accountant and then really have since sort of over gosh, I think it's about 2028 years now, which means I'm very old. I have had various risk compliance, governance, management and operational roles within the financial services industry. And as you say right now, my current role is as Chief Risk Officer for Perpetual, which is, as you say, asexlifted top 200 company, a diversified financial services company. And in my role, I look after the legal, governance, risk and compliance frameworks, but really is about bringing new perspectives, often quite technical from a legal or a regulatory or risk perspective, ultimately to be helping make good decisions, which is essentially what successful businesses do most of the time and where they don't they are reassessing them within an appropriate time frame. So I'd say I spend a lot of my time, I sit on a lot of boards across our different businesses and a lot of committees where essentially I am asking a lot of questions.
Sam Mosse
My favourite thing actually ask me that would be is asking questions to really get to the heart of the matter and sometimes there can be not enough of that getting right into what's really important and what is really going to have the most impact. So yeah, I spend a lot of my day asking questions, being asked questions as well. That's obviously really important but really driving decision making.
Camilla Love
Risk is a really important part of managing a funds management business or a business generally, but really particularly in finance. So where are the burgeoning risks that you are finding in today's funds management business?
Sam Mosse
So obviously it's a great time to be talking about risk and managing risk. Clearly there are a lot of geopolitical type risks going on at the moment that really need to be factored in to every sort of decision making and obviously that the degree of impact geopolitical risks have on your business depends very much on the nature of your business but one of the areas we're quite focused on or very focused on at the moment is ESG related risks or sustainability risks is another way of saying it and in many ways ESG is what I call in my usual non technical style a super risk. It really is triggering a lot of the different underlying risks. So for example the one that everyone talks about is obviously climate related type risks, whether they be the physical risks or the risks relating to the transition to sustainable economy. But equally ASG risks are really triggering people related risks. So employees want to work for companies whose values very much align with their values and it's important that from a retention and an attraction of talent perspective that your companies are thinking about sustainability of the corporate and of course in our case as a wealth manager and asset manager we embed ESG into our investment decision making as well and obviously that's not just on the risk side but obviously on the upside.
Sam Mosse
So the riskadjusted returns that we're always thinking about from an investment perspective. But yeah, ESG and sustainability risks definitely. Probably if I had to pick one area of focus right now it would be the one that everyone's talking about.
Camilla Love
Absolutely everyone's talking about it and we've spoken about a number of times within the Shares not Shoes podcast but mainly from an investment point of view. So it's interesting to see how you as a non investment person is really looking at that same risk but with a different lens and how it impacts your business and talent is really an interesting one because there is such a war for talent out there. So it's great that you're addressing that through a different lens and embedding that within the business because I think you're right that it is absolutely a critical risk that everyone is really addressing. So you mentioned early on that you started where really many graduates actually do start in one of the big four and in particularly an audit. Why was this a really good starting ground for you and why would you recommend this as a way of graduates starting into their journey in finance?
Sam Mosse
It's a great question and I think for me, finance and accounting and they're very interlink, it's sort of the language of business, isn't it? It doesn't matter what industry you're in, you have to understand the finances of your business and accounting is obviously how they flow through the records and the books of the business. And so great, it gives you the ability, the skill to really be able to understand any business in that common language of the financials. I actually think everyone broad statement, but everyone should do some bit of finance and account. Both of them actually finance and accounting learning in their careers. I don't think that's limited to people who are having a career in finance. I actually think it's any industry to really understand the workings and coming back to that decision making, how to make decisions as well. For me, actually fell into it in many ways was sort of preordained. My father was a chartered accountant and I loved math and economics and commerce at school, they were my favourite subjects and I fell into accounting and I took up a scholarship. That was what was then KPMG, sorry, Pete Marlin became KPMG and that sort of got me started, but I thought it was such a great background just to be able to speak the language of business.
Camilla Love
And then quickly after that you sort of moved directly into risk. Was that a decision or did you fall into a long stint at Macquarie looking at different bits and pieces in risk and compliance?
Sam Mosse
My first job at Macquarie was actually in internal audit and so as an external auditor, I was pretty keen to say goodbye to my auditing days and quite funny story. So I applied for this ad at Macquarie and I don't in any way want to infer that Macquarie were misleading. But the ad did not mention internal audit. Which I think is actually quite a good joke because on the face of it. I would have thought. No. I don't want to go keep doing audit. But actually I went to have a lunch with the head of internal audit at that time and the way that he spoke about the learning ground. That was what was then risk management division at Macquarie and the ability to see all of the different businesses. He actually talked me into taking the role again. I've had a career of learning and in those days. Risk management was just starting. So at a bank they had your typical credit risk people and we obviously had all the dealing desks, so we had very much a big market risk team, but from a regulatory risk, from us it's a compliance and from an operational risk, governance risk, reputational risk, conduct risk, all the risks that have come out since then, they weren't even functions back then.
Sam Mosse
So that's really where I was sort of another learning journey for me of actually not only seeing all the different parts of Macquarie but also becoming interested in all the different types of risks that are out there and the very large impact that that can have. It was always something that was very much central to Macquarie's model of understanding, not just the big returns that were available, but were those returns adequate for the risk. And so to me, risk management is everyone's job because it's actually just the other side of any decision risk reward, cost benefit. So I always have understood the importance of risk and how it's everyone's job. Now, granted, it is quite technical and that's why we have specialists, but certainly from the time I started in my career in risk really have always known that it's fundamental to success.
Camilla Love
Absolutely. It's an area where there's huge demand for jobs out there in the industry but it's not the first area that everyone thinks of when they think of finance. Why do you think there's that dichotomy there? Because I think risk and managing risk is really interesting, as you say, it is the flip side of getting a good return in business. But why isn't it everyone's first point of call for their jobs?
Sam Mosse
What a great question. If I could just make a definite plan certainly I think probably it's a history thing, I think back in the day, certainly not where I've been, the firms that I've worked for, and I wouldn't have worked for these firms if it was the case. But risk can have been seen as the handbrake, the handbrake to happiness. It's a term that I think people have heard of, may have heard of, so that was where risk was very much about the no police and no, we can't do that, it's too risky. And so it's always sort of people didn't come to risk offices until the proverbial had hit the fan and it was time to clean it up. Whereas actually, what a modern risk function, what a modern risk officer is about is actually the upside, it is about protecting the downside but it's actually more importantly about maximising that upside. So yeah, I think it's probably had a bad brand. I can say that as a career choice and perhaps it's been seen as something that's shoved in the corner and not really central, but actually it's quite the opposite to that.
Sam Mosse
The beauty of it is that it's part of every single decision, so it bans the entire organisation. There's no part that we don't get to be involved in and to learn about. And I think of my team and a career in risk as actually sort of a great breeding ground as well, to see, as I did at Macquarie, to see the whole of the business and then to make a decision as to if you might not want to stay in risk forever. But as I say, everyone's a risk manager, so everyone actually needs to be able to understand risk in terms of being able to make good decisions. So, yeah, I think it's probably just that whole bad image and we just need to be getting out there a bit more to actually sell it as a brilliant career, either short term or long term. But, yeah, it's involved in everything and there's not a day goes by that I'm not learning still and that's what I'm passionate about and it's what you really want to have in terms of when you choose a career and indeed a company that you can keep growing, keep learning, keep growing.
Camilla Love
From what I've heard, Australians actually manage risk at a really high level globally. Like, they're actually quite well renowned as risk managers globally. And from what I understand, the actual ISO standards actually based on original Australian standards. And I know there's some great university courses in Australia that are well renowned globally on looking at risks specifically, which, given that Australia is all the way down here in the world, it's quite interesting to see that we actually produce some really high quality risk managers out there, particularly in finance, which I think is just a good plug for us Aussies down here. So just changing tack a little bit. Looking back on your career, is there a moment that actually sticks in your head that you're either most proud of or you've made a decision that really had a different trajectory that you were really successful at? Was there something that you want to talk to us about that makes you happy?
Sam Mosse
A lot of my proud moments relate to the people in my team and the things that they've gone on subsequently to do, but some of the moments where I've made sort of deviated from what might have been expected. And frankly, I'm a bit of a planner, or a lot of a planner, if I'm honest. And I think about it, I think, wow, that's pretty cool. I wouldn't have predicted that I'd done that and gee, I learned a lot. So the first one was actually after I left Macquarie. I went and I had a career break from finance for a couple of years and I worked in the creative space. Actually an interior stylist and interior designer. And that was really pretty cool. Firstly. Because I got to rock up in jeans and Converse sneakers every day and just go to some really cool spaces that they work in. Rosebury in this really cool warehouse, but anyway, so totally different physical sort of world, but just so different as well. It seriously was like going to a different universe. And I'd come out of finance where we've got so much jargon, but actually they've got just as much jargon in their world as well.
Sam Mosse
But the thing even stuff like we'd be working on IBM computers because they are powerful and best for Excel and most compatible with Microsoft and stuff. But over in the creative space back then anyway, it was Apple Macintosh all around that I actually bought my first Mac and they're really good with Photos and I got onto Instagram, so that was really good. But I suppose that the point of the story. Really. Is that it was a small business where you're living every day to day. Every dollar matters and you really have to and I really appreciated my knowledge of understanding accounting and finance and realising really at the cold base almost what it's like when you have to be managing your cash flow. You have to be thinking about decisions in terms of when is this actually going to pay off and are we going to make it? I think it's something like one in three small businesses fail in the first year of their life. I suppose what I'm saying, it was great to go into this different world and sort of see how important the language of finance and accounting is and in this small business space where actually often they don't necessarily have that good understanding of numbers in finance.
Sam Mosse
And so that was pretty cool. And I came back into finance after that, actually, with an appreciation of the role that our industry plays across all the broader economy in terms of delivering services and expertise. The second sort of thing I would say experience, I would say, was when I came back out of Semi, call Semiretireirement in the creative space, I actually was employee number three at Henderson in Australia. So Henderson at the time was a very large, prominently European asset manager and they had decided it was time to start the business in Australia. And what was unique about that was coming from where I'd had a team of 60 people at Macquarie coming to be employee number three and having to really roll up the sleeves and do stuff again. It was a really humbling, really cool experience as well. But having that blank sheet of paper and I was actually working with a colleague, ex colleague from Macquarie, had tapped me on the shoulder for that role. We sat there and we said, let's bring all the really from a cultural perspective, as we start to hire people and build relationships with suppliers and launch products and do all these things, let's really think about the culture, the elements about culture that we've loved during our career.
Sam Mosse
And that was very much around being able to be yourself at work and ask the questions without fear of looking stupid and really just being your authentic self at work and leave some of the stuff that perhaps we might have seen that wasn't so great. And really that blank sheet of paper experience is something that not everyone gets, but it just really makes you focus in on what's important to you in terms of where you work and what really drives and motivates you when you are at work. And for me, it's working for a company where the values align, right, so that you talk to the very beginning about what gets you out of bed in the morning. And for me, it's knowing that I don't have to come to work and be this person that I'm not at home and I can just be myself and be as smart or as stupid as I am on any day and just encourage transparency. I suppose so, yeah. There were a couple of moments where I think, wow, I wouldn't have plotted that out in my little plan at the start, but actually I learn a lot out of both of those.
Camilla Love
It's never the straight line, is it? Right. It's always that graph of the circular line of the trajectory of your career versus the straight line that you plan it to actually be. It never ends up being like that. And the luxury of starting with a blank sheet of paper and getting the diversity of team right, and as you mentioned, culture right, it's not a lot of times that anyone really gets that opportunity because you're either going in as part of an old team that's already been there for a long time, so you inherit what somebody else has already planned. So, yeah, it's quite luxurious, I think, to be able to start from scratch and build it as the way that you want it to be. Now, on the flip side of that is we always learn from things, particularly when the chips are down and things have gone skew. If in your career is there a moment where you can think of that you go, yes, I learned a lot from either a mistake or something that might not have gone the way you wanted it to?
Sam Mosse
Yes, definitely, I will limit it to one or more. You've got to learn from mistakes. You're not trying hard enough if you don't make mistakes. But certainly I would summarise it by I took a role that was working for someone whose values didn't align to mine, and I took it because it was something different and certainly a challenging area. It was a bit of a cleanup job, certainly was a clean up job, and that was all good, and I learned a lot from that. But ultimately, something that I've stayed true to my whole career, except for in this moment, is to really pick who you work for. So you've got a choice in who you work for. And in this case, as I say the values were different. I'm not saying who's were better or not or worse, but certainly there wasn't that alignment of values and I did end up doing the job and then leaving. So I thought afterwards, yeah, there's no use having regrets, right? No, that's just wasted energy. So I reflected back on what I'd learned. As I said, it was something different and I learned a lot. I worked with some really great people in my team, but at the end of the day, you need to work for leaders who you have a value alignment with, and I've not done that in this case.
Camilla Love
And how do you find that out? Because generally you're only sitting through two, three, maybe four interviews with various people within the organisation, and values is really something you can only see once you're in it. Are there any flags that you think of when you reflect on that that you could have picked up on beforehand?
Sam Mosse
Yeah, well, I mean, in this case it was an internal move and so I really didn't have any excuses. But you're right, it's a great question in terms of people, listeners, I suppose, certainly do your research sometimes. I'm doing a lot of interviews at the moment. As you would imagine. And sometimes it surprises and frankly disappoints me when the candidate hasn't actually looked at the company and there's actually a lot of information. Especially if you're talking about listed companies. It's a bit more tricky in the private space. But there's still a lot on the internet that you can find about the principles of the company and by that I mean the leaders of the company and the principles and values of the company both ways. And so I think you just really need to ensure that you do your research for any role. Don't think just in terms of a role, thinking of short term, that's a great role. I think you need to be a bigger picture than that and think about the actual, the firm that you're working with, the team that you're working with. Do research in terms of looking at what they've achieved and the types of decisions that you can see that they've made.
Sam Mosse
And frankly, there's actually quite a lot of information you can gain from a website these days. And if I take sustainability, for example, is that something that is you're quite passionate about and you want to work for a firm? They should have a sustainability report or information about their approach to that on their website and that's something that you can look for and make sure that you feel like they are going in the direction that you want to go. So, yeah, I agree, it is challenging a couple of interviews, but I think you need to do more than that. I think you need to do your research ahead of making what is a really important decision in terms of a career choice or a job choice.
Camilla Love
So one of my last question I always ask is, what is the best career advice you've ever been given? And why particularly? And sometimes it's always in the moment, why it was important to you at that time.
Sam Mosse
So we touched on it already in terms of work for a firm whose value because ultimately you need to be happy, right? You can't have a job that makes you miserable. And I think for me, happiness means that you need to work for a company whose values align to yours, but also you need to make sure that your manager is someone that the job of the leader is to enable success of the team. And so if you feel like that isn't something that's happening, then you need to put up your hand and have a conversation. Don't assume that managers are mind readers, because they're not and they don't have super powers, so you need to have a conversation. There's nothing to lose from having a conversation. If you're not happy anyway, then maybe you leave or whatever, but you don't want to not actually have had the conversation and put forward your ideas and suggestions about how things could work differently and how they could be enabling you more. So I think don't be afraid to put forward your ideas and talk about how you think that you could be doing something differently or be doing more, et cetera.
Sam Mosse
So I would say that I also have been told at various points in my career and encouraged, and I've had some pretty good sponsors and mentors, but there's been times when I have left off ledgers, but I've also had someone doing this bit more and sort of giving me a bit of a shove and saying, trust yourself and so back yourself a bit more. And I suppose that's what I said. I sort of say, talk to people. So if you're feeling unsure about a potential opportunity and as women, sometimes females can underestimate themselves in terms of not ticking all the boxes, we hear about that a lot. So to sort of overcome that, because as I say, we're going to be ourselves. So in my case, I've spoken to people and I've tested things and I said, look, this is how I'm feeling and I'm not sure if I can do this, frankly. And I've had people that have said, yeah, it's a bit of a challenge, but you can totally do it, you're a planner, so make a plan for how to address some of those learning gaps or knowledge gaps or experience gaps.
Sam Mosse
And I suppose the summary of all of that Miller, is really talk to people and people are afraid of archive, mentor, various people, some more formal and some less formal. Don't be afraid to ask for help, don't be a martyr, I suppose, and don't make decisions in your head. More in the fishboard, right, exactly. And more introverted, analytical style. People might be a lot in their head, but actually they need to talk to people to get a different perspective and make a better decision.
Camilla Love
Well, that's fabulous. And I think that that's some really important advice out there and I might take a few of those. So, at the end of each episode, Sam, we do this sort of quick fire round. Have you listened to any of the podcasts? So you know I love a podcast. Okay, good. So you know what you're getting into, right? So you have to say whatever's coming out of your brain at the time, right? There's no planning on this. Okay, sure. So you ready to go?
Sam Mosse
Hit me.
Camilla Love
Okay. If I wasn't doing this job, I'd be a chef. A chef.
Sam Mosse
I'm not saying I'm good at it, no guarantee that would be a good one, but I would enjoy it. Yes.
Camilla Love
Okay, good. Are you a baker or like what's?
Sam Mosse
Not so much baking, actually. More savoury, so sort of love spices and flavours and mixing together.
Camilla Love
What's your go to dish?
Sam Mosse
I would say baked salmon with lots of fresh coriander and ginger. Probably Asian influences. Quite a bit of Asian.
Camilla Love
I'll come to your place for dinner, I'll just invite myself along. What useless thing are you really talented at?
Sam Mosse
I can remember. It's so weird. I can forget whether I put the washing in the dryer, but I can remember, like verbatim lyrics to some seventy s and eighty s ballads like Piano Man and things like that. It's just weird. It's totally useless.
Camilla Love
Don't worry. I can wrap Ice Ice Baby via vanilla ice without amusing. So I'm totally with you. I'm very talented of that as well. So yeah, quite useless, but quite talented. If you could live in any country, what would it be and why?
Sam Mosse
Gosh, I would probably say Japan. That's a bit weird. So I studied Japanese at school and Yoodi and I love everything about their food and their culture and just their way of being and their respect for each other, et cetera. So I'd love to live there.
Camilla Love
Great things. Fabulous. And the skiing is great too.
Sam Mosse
The skiing is great, yes.
Camilla Love
My biggest investment mistake was selling my.
Sam Mosse
Macquarie shares too early and I can't even talk about that.
Camilla Love
Okay. A bit of a sore spot, everybody, so probably not a good wrong question to ask. Note to self. How is your friends describe you?
Sam Mosse
I think they would say organised. I plan a lot of events and things so social and very loyal.
Camilla Love
I think that's great. That's quite true, I'm sure. Tell me something that no one else knows about you.
Sam Mosse
I'm an identical twin.
Camilla Love
Are you?
Sam Mosse
Yeah. It is a big part of my personality. We're still very close, but yeah, to all the identical twins out there, you know what I'm saying? It's a pretty amazing shout out to your sister. She would not like me to do that.
Camilla Love
Okay, well, hi out there, whoever you. Are, if you had to invite anyone alive or dead to dinner, who would it be and why?
Sam Mosse
Goodness, that's a hard one. Good one. I want to say one of my favourite people is I'd love to meet Sami Stoza. So I love tennis, personally, and she's amazing, clearly, but more importantly as a leader. And the way she thinks about her team and not herself, I don't know if you've ever noticed in her thankyou speeches, she always talks about us, she never talks about me or I. And I just think that is awesome and inspiring and fabulous.
Camilla Love
I absolutely agree. And the way that she played and bowed out from her career in the Aussie Open was just all class, which I think is fabulous. So I look forward to seeing where she goes in the next tranche of what is going to be a fabulous career for her. So on my bucket list is lots more travel.
Sam Mosse
There's just so many amazing places in the world that I want to go to. Antarctica, Egypt. I could just list off millions and I just haven't had the time so far. Obviously we've had covered, but I'm really looking forward to spending a lot more time doing that in the future.
Camilla Love
I think we all are, so I think we're all in line for that. Okay, my last question describing three words, why a career in finance is awesome?
Sam Mosse
Three words. It's dynamic in that it's obviously there's just change happening all the time. It's boundless in terms of limitless, in terms of there's so many different roles and skills that you can acquire in the finance industry and then rewarding. So not just from a money perspective, but just from a learning and challenging, fulfilling perspective. I think it's pretty awesome.
Camilla Love
It is super awesome and I'm glad we're all on the same boat there, but thanks, Sam. We've come to the end of the episode and I really appreciate your time and it's been great to hear your journey from Audit to your really important role in Risk Now and how you've moved and navigated that. I love the fact that you went out and you had a bit of out of finance career break and went into the creative realm for a bit. And I love your advice on asking the people for advice and not internally making decisions, and particularly about the value set and the importance of aligning your values with your leaders values as well as the organization's values. I think that is an absolute takeaway that everybody needs to really think about and assess when they're looking at a job, not necessarily in finance at all, but out there. So, super excited to have you on and thank you very much for your great advice here today.
Sam Mosse
Absolutely perfect. Miller and thanks so much for asking me to come.
Camilla Love
No problem. You know the information that is in this podcast we always talk about finance in this podcast, but it's not financial advice. It's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner or a broker and work out your own personal circumstances with that. But this is all about career's advice and how finance will be a fabulous career for you.