In our final episode for season 6 of Shares Not Shoes, we meet Jo Cornwell, Head of Manager Research at the Evidentia Group. Jo gives her experiences, having worked for the past 20 years in the finance industry across the UK and Australia.
She mentions what she looks for in a fund manager and how looking outside of the industry to broaden your skills can be a major benefit.
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Jo Cornwell
If I don't take this opportunity now, I'm not going to get that experience. And if I go and it doesn't work out, I'll just look for another job.
Camilla Love
Welcome everyone. Back to another episode of Shares, Not Shoes An Insider's Guide to Careers in Finance. I'm your host Camilla Love, founder of F3 Future Females in Finance Shares Not Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview some of my favourite people, all with one thing in common they work in finance. We lift the lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance and arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you, I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories. We'll be open and honest and will inspire you.
Camilla Love
So let's go.
Camilla Love
So today's guest is going to be a cracker. Everybody. Um, she started in the finance industry as an investment consultant in the UK. So you can tell that from her accent, but it's a little bit muffled now that she's been in Australia for a really long time. She grew up in what became one of Australia's largest superannuation funds. There she was responsible for overseeing the equities portfolio, and now she's head of manager research in one of the most exciting businesses in the most interesting segment of the finance market. And so we're very lucky to have her along on today's episode of shares, Not Shoes. Welcome, Jo Cornwell.
Jo Cornwell
Thanks so much, Camilla. Great to be here.
Camilla Love
So excited. You've been on my list of people to interview for a very long time, so I'm just glad we've made an excuse to have a chat, which is exciting. And I know you've had this wonderful, wonderful, long service leave stint, so maybe we can like, work that in to make people some bit jealous later on. But firstly, tell us a little bit about what you do. You know how you started in the industry, why you love it? Why are you still in it? What excites you to get out of bed every day?
Jo Cornwell
Thanks, cam. Yeah, very happy to to have a bit of a chat about that. Gosh, I have been in the industry for over 20 years now and time really, really does fly. It's quite, quite crazy. Um, I started my career back in the UK, as you mentioned, and you can tell from my accent, working for Mercer Investment Consulting, I joined their graduate development programme, which was brilliant. It was so much fun back in the day and a fantastic way to get into the industry and receive some really solid training in a business that was growing sort of quite fast at the time. And so I studied for my CFA. In my initial years whilst working at Mercer, I was in one of the generalist, um, consulting teams there and working alongside more senior consultants on some of the large defined benefit pension schemes in the UK. And so that was a really great grounding for my start into investments. And the CFA is a fantastic qualification that I do highly recommend.
Jo Cornwell
And they were very supportive in allowing me study time to focus on that so I could get that under my belt. And I spent many years there and sort of just working, working in the in one of the teams and sort of progressing from sort of analyst level to sort of junior consultant and then sort of for personal reasons, I ended up moving to Australia and happy to go into the story behind that.
Camilla Love
If did you fall in love or what did you do? So everyone comes and travels and then falls in love or something. Something.
Jo Cornwell
Yeah. It was it is quite a funny story actually. So, um, my boyfriend at the time, who is now my husband, we met on the Mercer graduate induction programme, actually. Um. That's exciting. So he also joined as a graduate for the same company, but was working in the Manchester office. He's a northerner who's from Manchester in the UK, and so when we started dating, which was sort of 2003 ish and 2004 maybe, and we were doing long distance for a few years, me travelling up to Manchester every weekend, him travelling down to London every other weekend and after a few years of dating, we decided that if we wanted to carry on being together, we probably needed to be in the same country or city at least, you know. And so he was a northerner, very anti moving to London and I really didn't want to move to Manchester. So we decided to move to Sydney.
Camilla Love
The furthest away point from both cities probably in the world.
Jo Cornwell
Yes. So that was the decision to move to Australia and very fortunately we were both able to transfer over with Mercer. So that was a great way to sort of have a job when we moved over here and when I came to Australia, I joined a part of the Mercer organisation that was at the time called Mercer Sentinel, and they were focused on operational due diligence and custodian management and sort of the more implementation side of investment solutions, which was, again, just incredibly useful experience to understand and spend some time in a part of the investment industry that I probably wouldn't have necessarily chosen to have a focus on, but really did help me get a full understanding of the broader investment picture and how things are implemented, and how the mechanics behind some of the decisions that are made work, which was really useful. And then after being in Australia, I decided that I wanted to get into the Superfund industry. It was growing quite heavily at the time. A lot of the big, bigger and growing super funds were internalising investment teams, and an opportunity came up for me to join a business.
Jo Cornwell
It was called State Super Financial Services, a small investment team at the time, but they were looking to grow. They worked with a whole range of different financial planners providing retirement advice, and we built investment portfolios for those those financial planners and their clients.
Camilla Love
And that's where I think I first met you.
Jo Cornwell
I think it was yes.
Camilla Love
Ago.
Jo Cornwell
I know. Yeah. So I joined there in 2011.
Camilla Love
Yeah. And it was you and Damien Graham was still there. And like watching the two of you grow in amongst different guises of that business is like super exciting from the from the outside looking in. How was it actually day to day?
Jo Cornwell
It was it was a great place to be able to certainly really further my career. So I started there as essentially it was a two person investment team. And then within about a year, we became a five person investment team as the business was really focused on spending a bit more time on investments and building out that team. And so that was when I started to specialise more in equities, portfolio construction and research, because beforehand I was doing a bit of everything because the team was so small. And then as we grew, I was able to have a bit more focus. And then in sort of 2016, um, what was called first state super at the time acquired state super Financial Services, and we all rolled into one big investment team that eventually became what is now known today as Aware Super. That was the rebrand that happened a few years ago now. And as I sort of progressed through my career, sort of in the team at Aware Super, I became sort of more responsible for sort of the overall Australian equities book and then the global equities book, and obviously the portfolios, once we were at aware super were much larger.
Jo Cornwell
So over my time there, I sort of I started at state Super Financial Services and our portfolios were about $15 billion of assets under management. And when I left the word super, it was $70 billion of assets under management.
Camilla Love
Yeah, just the growth in. I mean, not only the growth in the superannuation industry, but also the merger, acquisition growth that you would have seen over the. You know, I'm going to say nearly 15 years. It's a big guess that you were in that, you know, the aware super sort of fold. It's just it's just amazing. And I guarantee like how does portfolio and you know, and you haven't actually sort of delved into exactly what you do. But you did mention, you know, looking at equities and global equities in Australian equities. So how did it how did it look from you know, how did it have to change your mindset on having looking after smaller portfolios to looking after way, way way bigger portfolios.
Jo Cornwell
And the biggest thing was thinking about capacity so much more, sort of when you're dealing with mandates that are very large in size. Um, when every conversation you have with an investment manager is, you know, are you able to manage a mandate of this size within your capacity? We we want to make sure we can access all of the different investment strategies that are available to us. Um, but certainly in some subsets of the equities market, sort of like small cap that are typically more capacity constrained when you've got a lot of assets to deploy. And we're talking billions here. Um, then it can be more challenging. So that does sort of, uh, influence the type of investment strategies and managers that are available to you. And so we had to think sort of very carefully about that.
Camilla Love
And how do you apply that in capacity constrained. Do you either just, you know, ignore it or do you have your larger managers do a little bit in the smaller area, or do you take specialists, or do you move up the market cap a little bit and do mids as well?
Jo Cornwell
Yeah, we always try to take specialists. I mean, we definitely felt that. And I definitely believe this still that, you know, managers that specialise in their particular area and are focused in their particular area are most likely to to deliver you the alpha that you're looking for. And we usually had just more than one. Um, so you know, if, if we needed, if we wanted exposure to say, Australian small caps, we would, we would have more than one investment manager in that area so that we could spread our capacity a little bit. And then we just did sort of additional work on the portfolio construction side of things to make sure that the blend of the managers that we were using was appropriate for the overall portfolio. And that was a really interesting piece. I always really enjoyed doing that piece of the puzzle of the work that I did as well, that, you know, building the portfolio as well as selecting the underlying sort of building blocks of the portfolio, because it's quite interesting how important that is in getting the blend of managers right, as well as who they actually are.
Camilla Love
And so and on that front, like, what are you looking for? And we I mean, we haven't even looked we haven't even gone into Evidensia yet. But what are you looking for in your managers and the manager selection. Because obviously there are things that you have to, you know, as you mentioned, capacity, but there might be other things where you have to go, well, that's either a bit too risky or I need to sort of weigh up, you know, what's most beneficial here to, you know, versus my goal versus the risk that I'm taking or is my goal. What am I giving up to get sort of close to what I want rather than everything that I want?
Jo Cornwell
Yeah, definitely. And it's by no means an exact science. There is a lot of both art and, um, analysis that goes into sort of manage your research and, you know, there is a judgement part to it as well. And not everyone has the same opinion on on investment managers, which is what what makes the job particularly interesting. You know, I always enjoy that debate whether, you know, I can be like, this is what I've thought and what is someone else's opinion and, and test that a little bit. Um, but what I like to look for in, in fund managers is, um, differentiation. So someone who's doing something that they, that I can really identify as being sort of different from the general peer group of investment managers that I see on a regular basis, people who are forward thinking and have intellectual curiosity and continue to innovate their investment process. So rather than, oh, this is the way that we have been doing it for 20 years, and we'll sit back and we'll rely on that because we know it works.
Jo Cornwell
But okay, well, we've learned some things over the last 20 years, and this is how we've continued to evolve our process to be the same, but better over time. And I think that continual evolution and innovation in the way that you think about an investment process is really indicative of someone who is sort of continually trying to get better at what they do.
Camilla Love
Yeah. It's different. And also remember, if you stay still and the market's continuing to move, every day is different and you don't evolve as you know, a fund manager, whatever asset class you are managing, you get left behind just by default.
Jo Cornwell
Exactly. And it's no different from any other company. I mean, you want to see companies innovate, to be able to stay competitive and at the edge of their game. It's no different in a fund manager. They need to be able to innovate, to be able to stay the best in class. And so that's probably the main thing that I like to like to look for when I'm chatting to different investment managers.
Camilla Love
And you mentioned differentiation. It's really hard. Like there's some there's thousands of very good fund managers in global and Australian equities and like emerging equities, emerging markets and small caps and every different form like differentiation is really hard to uncover. And it's really hard to articulate from an investment managers point of view as well.
Jo Cornwell
Yeah. No, it definitely is. Um, and yeah, it can be interesting when you speak to a wide range of different people as to what they claim is their sort of differentiated edge. Um, but just usually I tend to find sort of people who have thought a little bit outside the investment universe, and maybe I can give an example. I was speaking with a fund manager a little while ago, and they said that one of the skills that they try to utilise across their team is they employed an interrogation expert. And so this is someone who was from the military and I think the FBI kind of organisation. Um, and they came in to their investment team and helped them understand how they used interrogation training. And the investment team sort of picked up from that sort of just a different way of thinking, of asking questions of the companies that they speak to. That to me was was quite a different approach to to how you can how you can learn things from different meetings that you come to.
Camilla Love
So just and the fund manager like knows all the skills now of interrogations. So yeah you're. And it's funny being on the other side from you know maybe the, possibly the table from a person like you and your role having in being interrogated from the other side. And now, you know, all the techniques as well. I think that that's that's funny.
Jo Cornwell
Exactly. But it was. Yeah, it's it's quite amusing. And it'd be interesting to see how those meetings that they've since used, those skills have been going. But just, you know, that thinking that they thought, okay, well, outside of the finance industry or outside of the investment industry, what can we possibly use to help our process or our approach that could be beneficial? And I thought that way of thinking was really was really interesting and really valuable.
Camilla Love
Absolutely. There's so many, you know, things you can learn from different industries and integrate them in, in different, different ways within finance. I think that that's absolutely, absolutely true. Now talk to me about your current role because you're you're relatively new in it, and it's a super exciting business in one, you know, in the wealth segment, which I you know, in Australia particularly there, you know, the market is sort of used to be, I'm going to say used to be the poor cousin. And now everybody's sort of facing towards it. Tell me a little bit about why. You know, why you chose to to take this opportunity.
Jo Cornwell
Yes. So I'm now at Evidentia Group and we're an Investment consulting sort of asset consultant firm that deals with large financial advice firms and very prestigious financial advice firms in the wealth management industry. And our role as an investment consultant is to work with those clients to build managed account portfolios and provide them advice, solutions, sort of alongside alongside those. And I'm head of manager research at the company. We're a small company, but we've been growing quite fast in terms of sort of clients that we've been taking on and assets under management that are in the managed account portfolios that we're responsible for. And I was very fortunate to come across this role. And and you rightly mentioned cam. This is a such an exciting part of the industry. The opportunities for growth is phenomenal. And the difference in just the types of clients that I'm dealing with is, is so interesting and and really rewarding. And I'm loving being in a small team and in a growth focused business that is just really trying to deliver good solutions to clients and be very client focused.
Jo Cornwell
And it's really enabling me that sort of opportunity to learn about a different segment of the market that I didn't have as much exposure to whilst I was on the institutional side. So yeah, I was very fortunate to, um, come across the role at Evidentia Group, and I've been with the company about just over a year now. Um, and I'm loving it. It's a fantastic role, a fantastic business. And, um, yeah, I'm very fortunate to have have ended up here.
Camilla Love
Yeah. And it's I mean, obviously in such a short period of time, it has really hit the ground running and has such a good reputation amongst the industry. I, you know, I think it's it's been exciting to watch, um, particularly when, you know, sometimes the industry becomes a bit lazy and needs a bit of a shake up, and organisations such as Evidensia can really can really do that and have really done that, which I think is super exciting because that means the future is bright and you're actually providing, you know, really strong institutional quality advice and manager research to, you know, organisations such as, you know, as you mentioned, dealer groups, but also like charities and foundations, and they now have access to great quality managers, which they might not have had before, which I think is really exciting.
Jo Cornwell
Yeah, it's really exciting. And I think hopefully our, our clients sort of feel the same way. But if we can work with our clients to help them build efficiencies in their business and help their businesses to grow and deliver them investment, institutional grade investment solutions along the way, then hopefully the entire industry is going to benefit.
Camilla Love
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So how did you get into finance? Like was it something you knew you were always going to do? Or was it like like most people you just fall into it. How did it how did it happen?
Jo Cornwell
Yeah, I guess I kind of sort of fell into it. It was it's not a particularly exciting story, but I was always fairly good at maths at school and always had quite a keen interest in business studies. And I studied business studies at a senior level at high school in the UK. They call them A-levels and it's the equivalent of the HSC. Um, and then sort of when I was deciding what to study at university, I wanted to do something that was slightly different. Not business studies, but not definitely 100% maths. Um, because I thought that would be too intense. So I landed on economics. So I studied economics at university, and that was sort of I really enjoyed that course. And yeah, I thought that would be a good grounding for me to find a career in finance. And I think I really wanted a career in finance, sort of for two reasons. I knew that it paid well, um, and I knew it would sort of hopefully be in an area where I sort of could use the skills that I felt I was best at.
Jo Cornwell
I'm not a particularly artistic person. I'm definitely more of a logical and mathematical related person. So it kind of suited, um, my, my skill set.
Camilla Love
And it was great. It's great to hear that you did economics, because economics is what I would, I think is becoming sort of much more a poor cousin these days to sort of a straight commerce or a business studies, as you mentioned, and particularly at school. And I think that that's, you know, really, you know, a sad state, particularly of, you know, particularly girls, but also like boys as well. There aren't enough going and doing economics at school level and then doing it at university level as well. So I mean, yeah, I wish there was more students doing economics because it gives you a great grounding in everything, just the basics of how the economy works and how money flows and everything. And I just, um, yeah, I'm a bit sad. Sad for that. So anyone who's listening out there, who's a student, you should think about doing economics at school and at uni because it is it really is very rewarding. So then, um, talking about a little bit of your role today, what does head of research, what does it do?
Camilla Love
What do you do from a day to day role.
Jo Cornwell
Oh gosh. So yeah. So I guess in a nutshell what I do is try to find a really good investment managers that I can have my clients invest in through their portfolios. So I usually sort of break down my workload into the asset classes that I'm focusing on and sort of and going through a bit of a process of doing a deeper dive within each asset class or subset of an asset class to sort of really identify who I think is going to be a best in class and also sort of appropriate for our clients to invest in, because there has to be a balance of what's right for our client portfolios. Not every fund out there is necessarily appropriate. And so, you know, as an example, more recently I've been doing a deeper dive review on greets of global real estate investment trusts or listed property securities and trying to look for managers in that space and, you know, gone through the universe and been speaking to a number of different funds that have availability for a fund in Australia, which is what our clients need to invest.
Jo Cornwell
And we've been doing that work recently. And then I'm going to be moving on to doing a deeper dive focus on global small caps and equities. So that's an interesting part of the market that hopefully we will start to see some better performance in. Because obviously the market's been very driven by large cap over recent times. And small caps have sort of been left behind. But we're confident and hopeful that we will start to see some better performance in small caps soon.
Camilla Love
Yeah. Well, you know, changing interest rates I think in a consumer that's a little bit more buoyant than it currently is, just gives a great grounding for that upswing and that reversion of that. The gap between the valuation gap between large and small. So I you know I think that's and there's some you know, as you mentioned, even in global small caps, you can it can be capacity constrained. So, you know, there's some really good managers out there. And I think it's quite exciting space to look at new technology and new segments of industries that are being looked at and a number of different areas where, you know, I think that Small Caps is a super exciting place to invest.
Jo Cornwell
It's a really interesting segment of the market, and I love doing my research meetings with global small cap and mid cap managers, because I come across companies that you've never heard of. So when I'm speaking to large cap managers, you know, it's, you know, you come across the same names on a fairly regular basis. Microsoft and Meta and Nvidia and Booking.com etc.. But in the small cap space, some of these companies I've never heard of, and then you come across and then you sort of understand how they fit into your everyday life and what they do. And it's yeah, it's it's really fascinating. You learn different things about industries that you wouldn't expect to learn, like Japanese robotics companies and, um.
Camilla Love
You know.
Jo Cornwell
Contact lens suppliers and all kinds of different parts of the market that you wouldn't necessarily learn about otherwise.
Camilla Love
Well, I think and that's why I think it's exciting. And then you've got, you know, founder led businesses, which, you know, provides, you know, another dimension on investing. And then you've got market cap levels, which there isn't a lot of liquidity in. And then you've got, you know, and then you think about the global universe. It's like 24,000 stocks there. You know, are you investing in Turkey or are you investing only in the US? I mean, there's different risk and return outcomes in there. I just think it's exciting.
Jo Cornwell
Yeah, it's it's a it's a great, um, great part of the universe to spend some time sort of looking at and just, again, provide something different to focus on outside of the large cap space, which gets talked about on a fairly regular basis. So I do enjoy sort of finding these sort of different niche strategies that are a bit different that, um, give you something different and new to learn.
Camilla Love
And given that you've been around for a reasonably long time, just like me, we're both equally as young as each other. I'll give you that. Um, there's inevitably things that go wrong, right? So either a manager is performing badly or a manager has a team, you know, a key man that's or woman that's left. Um, you know, have you come to work one day and one of your equities managers has delivered some bad news or something's happened, and then how do you deal with it? Do you let it ride for a bit? Do you do you make decisions then and there? How do you think about, you know, mistakes that have happened and how you ballast your portfolio through those periods of upheaval?
Jo Cornwell
Yeah, and it's definitely challenging. I remember, uh, at Aware Super, we had an investment manager that we'd recently appointed, largely because the lead portfolio manager, we had a very positive view on. And then I got an email I think I was away on holiday at the time. Actually, I got an email saying that he would he was leaving and I think I literally was like, fuck. Um. Totally.
Camilla Love
And you're like, that was while I'm on holiday. And two, seriously, I've just put all that work in and now you're making me do more work.
Jo Cornwell
So that was incredibly frustrating. Um, and yes, there is there is incredibly frustrating when things like that happen because one, you can't predict them necessarily. You know, people people change and people move. Um, you know, so what we have to do is deal with the information as it comes, find out what the fund manager is doing, who they're putting in place on the portfolio, get to know them as quickly as we can, and firstly, find out whether we're comfortable that they are going to be a good caretaker of the portfolio, you know, whilst, um, whilst the, you know, team changes sort of evolve in that sort of situation, usually we try to pre-empt these types of things by making sure that we've spoken to a fund manager about any succession plans previous to an investment. So we have an idea of, you know, something like this was going to happen, who would take over, etc.. Um, but that was definitely a key learning for me. It was to sort of speak more to fund managers about succession planning and sort of, you know, ask how things would evolve if key people did leave and and then, yes, I mean, underperformance is a different kettle of fish, really, because it's kind of part and parcel of investing with active managers.
Jo Cornwell
So I try not to be too responsive to periods of underperformance unless they're really outsized versus what I would expect. And then it's just a case of sort of really trying to understand what's driven the underperformance. On the flip side, I do try to make sure it's, um, outperformance as well. So if we've seen a fund manager perform phenomenally well and again, better than we would expect, also do try to sort of look into sort of what has driven that, um, do we need to rebalance that type of thing just so we can just so we can be sort of sure that our investment thesis for holding that manager still still remains in place. So yes, there's there's always, always plenty to learn with the, the changes that evolve. But yeah, key people leaving is my biggest bugbear and definitely the hardest one to to deal with.
Camilla Love
And it's and it's it's it's hard because particularly in boutiques you know key man risk is or key woman risk is an issue. But that's part of the day to day. That's why the business has been set up. That's why you know, and you try and do as much as you can for it. But and try and you know, as you say, go through succession plans and understand, you know, who's next in line and all that sort of stuff. But there's, there's only so much you can do because these are I mean, these are people's lives too, right? So, um, yeah. But, you know, it's such a pain in the ass when things like that happened. Oh.
Jo Cornwell
Yeah. Can definitely be there. Okay.
Camilla Love
And on the performance side, when you come across and you've analysed periods of underperformance or even outperformance where they shouldn't have done that, you know, because there's talk about style drift and you know, you say your value, but actually you become a bit growth in a market that's not. And particularly when value has been out of style for however long. I mean, that's just a really good example where style drift can occur when managers move into growth and they aren't now doing what they were supposed to be doing when you put them in the portfolio. How do you have those those type of discussions with your managers?
Jo Cornwell
I always try to be as transparent as possible, and if a manager is doing something that I don't feel is in line with their philosophy or their process, I will tell them as such and listen to what they have to say occasionally we do start to see sort of companies in portfolios where I'm like, I'm not sure that really aligns with with what I would have expected to see. So can you explain further as to why that's in there, what your thinking is around your thesis for holding it? How long you intend to hold it for, how that aligns to your thesis. And the majority of time, you know, fund managers are making really good decisions. You know, they've thought carefully about why they're investing in certain companies and why it's it's right for their portfolio. But if we do start to see a trend where we no longer have confidence that the the manager is, is making good decisions, then then we will recommend that clients exit and we'll, we'll have we try to have a list of sort of backup managers or ones that we feel are similar, that we can put clients into instead.
Camilla Love
Yeah, the backup manager options is always good in a situation like yours. Um, stepping back a little bit and looking down on your career as it currently stands and, you know, over the 20 odd years it has been, you know, moving through successfully. Is there anyone that you'd like to do a shout out to or recognise as important to you, either at a they've given you a piece of advice or they've, you know, it was a point in time when you really needed something and they gave it to you. Is there anyone you want to recognise?
Jo Cornwell
Um, this might be a little bit off the cuff, but I do think one of the best pieces of advice I received was from my nan. Um, and this wasn't particular career advice, but I have used what she said to me in a career sense. And this was I was 22, approximately 22. Um, and I'd been with a boyfriend for about three years at the time, but we'd just broken up. But, um, he was a great guy. It just didn't work out. But my nan loved him and I was really dreading telling her. I was like, oh my gosh, she's going to be a bit upset. She's going to think I've made a big, big mistake. So I sort of told her I was like, oh, you know, I broke up with this guy. And she was like, and I expected her to be like, oh, that's such a shame. But she was like, Joe, this is a brilliant plan. She's like, you don't need to be tied down at the age of 22.
Jo Cornwell
You need to go out there. You need to seize the new opportunities and live your life.
Camilla Love
I love you, Nan. She sounds like the bomb.
Jo Cornwell
And I was just sort of a bit taken aback. And I think from her perspective, she was like, you know, you've got all of these opportunities ahead of you that she didn't have when she was my age. The opportunity to travel, the opportunity to be a woman in the workforce, the opportunity to learn at a university and in further education, you know, things that weren't accessible to her. She was probably about 85 when we had this conversation. Um, So it was. Yeah. Just reminded me to think that, okay, we've got to make take good use of the opportunities that are presented to us and, and really think about sort of what we, what we want from our careers and our lives and make the most of any opportunities that are presented to us. So that's something that I carry with me to this day. And if an opportunity arises that I think will be worthwhile, then I do try to take advantage of it if I can.
Camilla Love
Um, I think that's a great piece of advice, because a lot of people, you know, like to, you know, go, okay, I'm going to be in this role for two years and into this other role for another two years, and in this other role two years. But actually, they get given these opportunities that might be a bit left of field, but just because they're not what was planned doesn't mean they're not equally, if not better than what was planned. And by saying no to those opportunities, you actually, I think you limit it. limited my view with everything, and you probably could well know this, but you know I say yes to everything and then try it out a little bit. And if it doesn't work, then I go and make another decision. Um, but yeah, I think that's true. I mean, generations, particularly women, you know, multiple generations ago, they weren't given the opportunities that we are today. And I look forward to my daughter and possibly my daughters daughters, you know, having way more opportunities than we ever did, which I think is exciting as well.
Jo Cornwell
Exactly. And that's generally how I try to think about it. You know, like the moving to Australia was a good example. You know, I didn't know what life was going to be like in Australia. I'd never been there before. Um, and me and my boyfriend at the time now, husband were like, okay, well, we'll give it a go. And, you know, worst case scenario, if it doesn't pan out, we'll move back. And so I've always tried to approach things that it's worth giving it a go. And there is always Ways. Another option if it doesn't work out as you expected. And the same with like when I took this role at Evidensia. Like, you know, I was taking a bit of a risk. This was a small business. I didn't really know what to expect. Working in the wealth management side. I didn't know whether I was going to enjoy it. I didn't know how the business was going to go, but I was like, well, if I don't take this opportunity now, I'm not going to get that experience.
Jo Cornwell
And if I go and it doesn't work out, I'll just look for another job.
Camilla Love
Yeah, exactly. And I was also the risk on backing yourself. I mean, that's a really great, you know, example of going, hey, well, I know my skill sets. I know I'm adaptable, I know I'm curious and I know that I can land on my feet. So whatever decision that I can make today, I have every opportunity. I can take that risk because I believe in myself. And if it doesn't work out, so be it.
Jo Cornwell
Yeah, I think that's really relevant. I think it's really important to believe in yourself and invest in yourself and just take those chances if you can.
Camilla Love
And then obviously you invested in yourself pretty early with doing the CFA, which I think is, you know, a great extra piece of study that a lot of people in our industry do to give them the breadth, but also the technical know how. Um, and you did that really young like you did that straight, straight out at, at Mercer. I mean, did they did Mercer like, suggest that you do that or is that something off your own bat too?
Jo Cornwell
No, they it was part of their graduate development programme. So when you joined as a graduate, you could choose to either do the actuarial qualification or the chartered financial analyst qualification. And because I was in the investment team, they also had an actuarial team. The Mercer business did. But because I was in the investment team, I felt the CFA was more appropriate. Um, and so I went went down that route.
Camilla Love
Yeah. I can't imagine you as an actor either. So just saying. Ha ha.
Jo Cornwell
I shouldn't joke too much because my husband did choose the actuarial route. So he's an actor. Oh, no.
Speaker 3
Ha ha.
Camilla Love
Ha. Well, two compliments of the same coin, I'm going to say. Oh, that's pretty funny. So we are coming to the end. And now I know that you've probably listened to a few of these podcasts, so you know what happens next, don't you?
Jo Cornwell
Right, I think so.
Camilla Love
Yeah. So I don't bite. So I'm going to give you a whole bunch of questions. Um, so the first thing on your mind, this is we're here to, you know, have a laugh. We're here to show, you know, a little bit of your, your non-work character, which I think, um, for everyone out there listening is, um, exciting and fun. So let's go. Yeah.
Jo Cornwell
Okay.
Camilla Love
Okay. Ready? First question is, if you could be any animal, what would you be and why?
Jo Cornwell
Oh, a dolphin. I just love dolphins. Yeah.
Camilla Love
Me too.
Jo Cornwell
I love being in the ocean to swim. And I think there are intelligent, smart creatures as well. So. Yeah, definitely a dolphin.
Camilla Love
Yeah. And friendly and all that. Love it, love it. Okay. My first investment was.
Jo Cornwell
Myself investing in myself.
Camilla Love
Mm. That's a good answer. Very good answer. What movie do you absolutely love? But embarrassing to admit.
Jo Cornwell
Oh, um. I absolutely love Cruel Intentions. It's probably my all time favourite movie. I don't know if that's too embarrassing.
Camilla Love
No, that's pretty cool, actually. These days.
Jo Cornwell
Yeah. Um. What do I love? That's a little bit embarrassing. Oh, the Sound of music. I love the sound of two. Oh, my.
Camilla Love
God, it's like my top. Like my top two and I probably I try and sing every note and I know exactly like even that really high note that that, you know, the Mother Superior does in that dark room. Oh my God, I love that movie. And I'm so glad that you admitted that.
Jo Cornwell
Yeah, I don't tell too many people that. But yeah, I'm trying to get my kids to like it at the moment.
Camilla Love
Oh, so I sing, actually, Sabrina to sleep most nights with the Sound of Music soundtrack. So there you go. Well, you know, My Favourite Things is a great one, and they're easy. And she sings along and it's actually really fun.
Jo Cornwell
I always think my favourite things to my daughter when there's a when there's a thunderstorm.
Camilla Love
Ah yeah. Totally. That is cool. That's the movie. That's the scene in the movie, isn't it?
Jo Cornwell
Yeah.
Camilla Love
Okay. My favourite superhero is.
Jo Cornwell
Um. Oh. Good question. Superhero. I'm not sure if I have a favourite superhero. Maybe Spider-Man?
Camilla Love
Yeah. Spider-Man's a good one. Absolutely. Just, you know, straight out the out the wrist. Just being.
Jo Cornwell
Able to. Yeah, exactly. Being able to shoot something out from your wrist is pretty cool.
Camilla Love
Yeah. And climb walls and stuff. Oh, my gosh, so fun. Um, my favourite book is.
Jo Cornwell
Oh, the Nightingale. I don't know if you've read it by Kristin Hannah. It's such a good book.
Camilla Love
No.
Jo Cornwell
Yeah. She's a she's a phenomenal author. I've read a lot of her books, but that's probably by far my favourite. Um, she. Yeah, she just does fantastic writing. It's novels. Um, but. Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful books.
Camilla Love
Great. How would your friends describe you?
Jo Cornwell
Ooh. Good question. Um, I think they would describe me as organised, efficient, social, wine obsessed.
Camilla Love
Wine obsessed, red, red or white? This is like part of the same question.
Jo Cornwell
But probably, um, white most generally, especially if I'm out. But I do like a glass of red wine in the winter with a fire. Yeah, that is nice.
Camilla Love
And your favourite white is.
Jo Cornwell
Ooh, Chardonnay? Probably, but it has to be a good Chardonnay. Uh, I'm also quite a big fan of, um, uh, semi-sweet blends as well, actually. And I've become more of a fan of Riesling. Riesling recently, actually.
Camilla Love
Me too. Me too. A good Riesling out of the Clare is really good. That's one of my.
Jo Cornwell
Favourite things about being in Australia, actually. The access to all of the different wine regions that we have over here.
Camilla Love
Yeah. It's uh I mean, there's some, I mean, really well quality here, which is exciting and good to good to drink as well. Um, best finance book or even finance podcast that you've read or listened to?
Jo Cornwell
Oh, very good question. I don't have to admit I don't actually read that many finance books. Um, and I'm not even sure this could be classified as a finance book, but it's kind of closely related. The Wolf of Wall Street is a good book to read.
Camilla Love
Next question is if I wasn't doing this job, I'd be a.
Speaker 4
Oh, I.
Jo Cornwell
Think I'd be a travel planner. I love organising and planning holidays. Um, and yeah.
Camilla Love
So tell me about your four months away.
Jo Cornwell
Oh, that was amazing. Oh, I was very lucky. So we, um, I had long service leaves that I'd built up from my time at aware Super. Um, and so we utilised that long service leave to take four months and go travelling around Australia. And so we went from Sydney and we sort of drove all the way along the coast, going through sort of southern New South Wales, Victoria, across the Great Ocean Road, through to South Australia, across to Kangaroo Island and then across the Nullarbor to into WA. And we spent most of our time in Western Australia sort of exploring everywhere in that state. Everywhere from sort of Esperance and Albany and Denmark on the south coast to the Margaret River and Perth and Rottnest Island, and then up to monkey Mia and the Ningaloo Reef, part of the coast, and then continuing up through the Pilbara. We went into a national park called Karijini National Park, which is sort of inland from, yeah, Exmouth and then carried on up to Broome.
Jo Cornwell
And then we did the Gibb River road through the Kimberley region.
Camilla Love
Yeah. Wow.
Jo Cornwell
And then carried on through to, through the Northern Territory, uh, Kakadu National Park, Katherine National Park and finished up in Darwin and then flew home from Darwin.
Camilla Love
Wow. And like, was there like a funny thing that happened on the way? Like, there's always on road trips. There's always something funny that happens. Like, I don't know, a tyre blew at the absolute wrong time or something got stuck or you left something behind. What was it?
Jo Cornwell
We were pretty fortunate and we didn't have too many major instances, but I do remember we were snorkelling on the Ningaloo Reef and the Ningaloo Reef is incredible. Like you can snorkel from the shore, you only have to go out like ten metres and the reef is literally right there. It's absolutely incredible. Um, and we were snorkelling as a family and my daughter had her pool noodle, but it was quite windy, like, the water was lovely and warm and it was a blue sunny day, but it was quite windy. Um, and she was sort of faffing about in the water. And then she dropped her pool noodle and I think I was away snorkelling so I didn't sort of notice or hear. And then she got into a bit of like a tizz was because she'd lost her pool noodle. And my husband sort of comes and grabs me, and he's not quite as confident a swimmer as I am. And he's like, oh, we've lost the pool noodle. And so I look up and this pool noodle is like floating out to the ocean, like miles away.
Jo Cornwell
And I was like, oh, right. Okay. And I was like, should we go and get it? And he was like, do you think you can? And I was like, I think I probably can. So I had to sort of sprint swim into the ocean to try and chase after this pool noodle. So my daughter could have it back, but it got blown quite a long way. And after swimming about, I don't know, 200m or so, I was like, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to catch this pool noodle. But anyway, I persevered and I managed to get the pool noodle and bring it back to my daughter safely. But unfortunately, on my way back, I'd scraped myself on some of the coral because the coral is like not that far below the surface. And so I had this really bad graze on my leg. So then we had to sort of rush out the water and get sort of a first aid. So I didn't get infected with the cut.
Jo Cornwell
So yeah, it was quite eventful, but quite amusing in hindsight.
Camilla Love
All all for pool noodles.
Speaker 4
All pool for the things we. Yeah.
Camilla Love
And things we do for our kids. Right? I know.
Speaker 4
You're like.
Camilla Love
You put your body at risk here, right?
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah.
Camilla Love
Oh. I'm just it's such an amazing journey. I yeah, I'd love to see the photos, but that's that's for another time.
Jo Cornwell
It really was. I highly recommend travelling as much as possible for anyone. But yeah, there are definitely parts of Australia that are just spectacular. So so beautiful.
Camilla Love
Yeah, absolutely. And Ningaloo is definitely on my bucket list, which hopefully we'll get to soon. Who knows? Um, and so the last question, are you ready for the last question?
Speaker 4
Okay.
Jo Cornwell
Last question. Let's go.
Camilla Love
Okay. Describe in three words why a career in finance is awesome.
Jo Cornwell
Oh, three words only. Okay. Um. Rewarding. Interesting. Ever changing.
Speaker 4
Ha!
Camilla Love
They're great. They are great descriptors of why a career in finance is awesome. So Joe, thanks so much for joining us on Shares Notches today. I love your grandma's advice. I love the story, the stories about your trip around Australia. I love that you made it to Australia in the first place, otherwise I wouldn't even know you. Um, and you know, I love your insights because, you know, trying to find that diversity in a fund manager and the curiosity and dealing with problems that get thrown at you, um, and being sort of open minded in taking new opportunities and patting yourself on the back and having that self, you know, um, Understanding that you can take the risk because you believe in yourself, I think is wonderful. So, so much thanks on joining us and being so authentic and honest and and open with us today. So we really enjoyed you coming to visit us.
Jo Cornwell
Thank you so much. It was great to be part of it. And um, thank you so much for having me.
Camilla Love
No problem. I'll see you next time.
Speaker
Will do. Bye bye bye.
Camilla Love
You know the information that is in this podcast? We always talk about finance in this podcast, but it's not financial advice. It's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner or a broker and work out your own personal circumstances with that. But this is all about careers advice and how finance will be a fabulous career for you.