This week on the Shares Not Shoes podcast we meet Karen Chan, Portfolio Manager at Perennial Private.
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Karen
I think I was always told to have that service sort of mindset. Think about, you know, what you can do for someone or for the organisation versus what can the organisation do for you.
Camilla
Welcome everyone back to another episode of shares, not shoes, an insider's guide to careers in finance. I'm your host, Camilla Love, founder of f three Future Females in Finance. Shares our Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview some of my favourite people, all with one thing in common. They work in finance. We lift the lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance, and arm you with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you. I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories, will be open and honest, and will inspire you. So let's go. As you know, this season we are focusing on seed, venture and growth capital as well as private equity from a number of different investing perspectives. And today's guest is an absolute cracker. She's a new friend of mine, but we've already got up into a little bit of mischief overseas and I've even met family members, which means that we're on like, you know, another level of friendship, I think. Originally residing from sunny Adelaide, or what we would probably call in Australia, Radelaid, this portfolio manager, took the book bold move to move to Sydney to do a commerce law degree.
Camilla
She had a number of stints in investment banking and even law before finding her niche in the venture capital world at Firstly Investec and then now at perennial private. Welcome to the podcast, Karen.
Karen
Thanks, Cam, for having me. You reminded me of our adventures in New York just a couple of months ago.
Camilla
Yes. And I keep having photos pop up on my, you know, on my apple photo, you know, reminders, you, your sister and me. And we just. I just. It just makes me smile every time. I love it.
Karen
Wow, it's so much fun.
Camilla
Yeah, it was great. Oh, so much fun. Can we do that again?
Karen
Yeah, we have to.
Camilla
Absolutely. Okay, let's crack on. So can you tell me a little bit about you, your job and what you do at perennial?
Karen
Sure. So just to give you a bit of background, I'm a portfolio manager with perennial private investments. It's one of the boutique managers within the perennial partners group. We're focused on the private side of the business, as the name suggests. So we invest in growth stage pre IPO as well as IPO and listed placements. So there is a bit of a crossover element. So we are investing in both private as well as those companies that cross over to the listed side of the world.
Camilla
And that's really interesting because that's an interesting offer, particularly for that startup space and the growth capital space where they generally don't have the skillset to move from unlisted to listed.
Karen
Yeah, I think one of the key differentiators from us, from a much more earlier stage venture investor, is that we actually focus on the exit at the time of investing. And that's not to say that venture investors don't think about the exit, but we're much closer to it. So many of the companies that we invest in may have a horizon of an ipo within their site. So it's sort of like they would be thinking about listing within potentially like a six month to a three year type of timeframe. And then depending how close they are to an IPo, then they would also be thinking about how to structure the investment. It might actually be different to a traditional private investment where you would be in the form of equity and we would be looking at investing via convertible notes.
Camilla
And how do you come across all these companies that you invest in? Is it people referring you on? Is it doing the research? Like, it's very unlike researching the listed space, correct?
Karen
Yeah, I think the key difference is that in the listed space, the universe is capped. There's a universe of stocks that you would look at and you would then trade on the information or the research or any sort of insights that you might draw from that research, whereas in the private space, the opportunity is very much dependent on your access. It's a much larger universe of companies and we get our deal flow from any source. So I would say closer a company is to being listed, they would often have a broker. So a lot of the deals may be brought to us through an investment banker or a stockbroker. But then the earlier, if it's an earlier, then I would say it would come from our proprietary network. So being very plugged into, I guess the overall investing ecosystem is really important. And we would get our deal flow from venture, other venture investors, founders that we've backed investors into our funds, and as well as other players in the ecosystem, such as debt providers, lawyers, accountants and advisors.
Camilla
Anybody, really, anyone that walks down the street could go, hey Karen, I've got this really good investment idea for you.
Karen
That's right. And so I think every investor takes a different approach. I'm a bit more open minded in the sense that I'm happy to take a meeting or take a referral from any source, and that could also be inbound. And sometimes I would go outbound as well. But then I think some investors would be much more selective and would only look at an opportunity if they feel it's been bettered. And it comes from a warm introduction.
Camilla
Yeah, it's funny because we always talk about the networking and the importance of networking on shares, not shoes. And in this space, particularly, having an open network that is free flowing and organically growing is really critical to come across really good investment ideas.
Karen
That's so true. And I think networking is relatively new to me. I know that you are like a power networker, Camilla. I do love it, and you're so good at it. But before, I think I sort of entered the investing space, I would say that I was not focused on networking at all, but I felt I was coming into this space from behind and I really needed to catch up, really invested in networking, and I think that started to really pay dividends. And I think you learn a lot from meeting lots of different people. And I would say you actually learn a lot from actually catching up with other investors, other companies, founders, just to really understand what they're seeing. And then as an investor myself, I think that really helps me triangulate and form a thesis around whether it's a founder or a company that I want to back.
Camilla
Yeah. So now talking about that, because I think, I mean, you and I both do a bit of angel investing on the side, Pa, which I love because personally it's about for me, you know, supporting founders, sort of living out their dreams. Obviously, it's important for me to get returns, but I really, you know, there's some cracking technology that comes across our desks from time to time. And, you know, I really, I really love getting my geek on, per se, and finding out a little bit more about, you know, companies and people and founders. So what is it that you, as a professional investor, look for in the companies that you invest in?
Karen
So as a professional investor, especially at the later stage, we would definitely be looking at metrics versus, say, an earlier stage investor where there is less data on a company because the company could be pre revenue. By the time a company reaches my desk, it tends to already have revenue, which is actually one of our key criteria. So I would be looking at the history and track record of operations. I think taking a step back, I would look at the market opportunity, how big the total addressable market is. Secondly, I'd be looking at the product or the solution, like, and what problem this company is solving, and then doing a deeper dive on the company's unit economics and making sure that the metrics that I, I see actually stack up and that the company has a competitive advantage which would enable it to scale its opportunity into its current market opportunity, or that it would be able to capture adjacencies as well. So I would look at a combination of both quantitative and qualitative metrics. I didn't touch on this before, but I think one of the key things is because we are minority investors, which means we don't take a controlling stake, we would be focused on the founder as well as the management team because we are basically backing them to grow that business so that we can, in turn get an outcome for our end investors.
Camilla
But, I mean, that founder piece is always an interesting one because there's people personalities and you get the alpha person who you just get sucked in by the story, versus someone who's a little bit more introverted, who might be actually technically brilliant. How do you decipher between who you see?
Karen
I think that's a really good question and I think it's actually a key question for both early and late stage investors. I think at the later stage we have a few more data points just given. The company would have a number of years under the belt. I think a key thing for me is our diligence. The founder, based on the prior investors, if there have been any other investors on the cap table, and also really taking a look at the team, has the founder been able to attract good talent and retain that talent? Because that is also very telling. And just given the networking piece we talked about before, it's also easy, I guess, in some ways, for me to be able to sort of reference cheque people within my network who may know the founder or know the company or know people that work inside that organisation.
Camilla
Love a good network to double cheque everything.
Karen
Yes. And actually another tip I would have is sometimes checking, like, glassdoor and sort of seeing the reviews that employees have.
Camilla
Interesting.
Karen
Because sometimes that can be quite telling.
Camilla
Yeah, absolutely. And even, like, I'm sure Reddit and stuff like that as well. Like, there's some stuff, you know, that gets said, but it is. I mean, you do have to do. And you have to do extra digging in this space to actually find the answer. Right?
Karen
Yeah, you have to do the extra ticking.
Camilla
Yeah, because it's not. It's not a public market. You don't get the information given to you. You know, you have to go and actually go and find it.
Karen
Yeah. It's also, it's not easy. So I think that's the art versus the science, because you know, at the time of investment, clearly, and given we're not distressed investors, the company should have already been operating with a good track record. So things are rosy. And at the time of investment, you would be, I guess, like in that honeymoon period where everything is going well. So it is hard to really tell until when things go wrong, how would that founder be like to work with? So that's something to try and work out at the time of investment.
Camilla
Yeah, absolutely. And is that something that keeps you up at night? You know, is it not necessarily upside, but actually protecting the downside in this space? Because we all know the statistics of investing in this. It's a high risk space and the likelihood of businesses going broke is really high. Does that keep you up at night?
Karen
Absolutely keeps me up at night. I think the surprises in the portfolio, I think as much as. Yeah, exactly. So no one likes a surprise, so no news can be good news. I think, for me, structuring of the deal going in is quite important. So generally speaking, later stage investors would want to be investing in the highest class of shares if it's an equity deal, and we would want those shares to be preferred shares, which means we get to get our money out first before other equity shareholders. And we would also have some downside protection, so there could be anti dilution rights as well. And then I did touch a little bit on convertible notes. So that's a very good structure to really protect that downside because it is a debt instrument, but can be equity like as well. But then you would have a flaw on the conversion cap. So that's the evaluation that you could convert the business at, hoping that the company would actually execute and therefore do the next round or exit at a much higher valuation. So then that would ensure an uncapped upside. But then if the, the next round or the liquidity event is at a lower valuation to the cap, then it would be structured so that there is a discount on conversion.
Karen
So it's like a win win for the investor.
Camilla
Do you help, I mean, obviously, before you get to that stage, do you help companies either try and find an exit or try and get your money back at some point before it even gets to, you know, the, essentially the conversion point?
Karen
Yeah, I think it's really important to find that alignment with your investors. So, you know, I obviously manage money for end investors, so I need to return their capital within a certain timeline under our fund structure. And so I do need to have that alignment, because if there is a mismatch, then I won't be able to provide that return back to my own investors. So I think one of the value adds that we have at perennial is that we're closer to the public market, so we can really guide those companies if they want to go down that IPO route. And also, I guess my background as a prior investment banker, where I did do both ipos and ran sell sides and m and a for my clients, I do have an idea of what could be the potential exit path, whether that is to sell themselves to another company, merge with another company, or the IPO path that I'd mentioned previously.
Camilla
Yeah, and that's a great segue to my next question, because you have seen all spectrums from seed to venture, private equity, m and a. And that side is quite an interesting side. What is it about growth stage venture that makes you jump out of bed in the morning?
Karen
I think really it is the breadth and depth that we can go into with the company. So I guess I'm really excited about the fact that in the growth stage, we are backing companies that have a high degree of growth. So there is a very positive sort of element, because if you think about it every day, the companies that I meet, they are looking to either change the world or provide a better solution to the market. And as a result, these founders and management teams have a high degree of enthusiasm and positivity versus maybe a distressed company that is really looking for a solution and still having to think about how to turn around their business. We're also backing founders and management teams that want to, I guess, be owners of their destiny. So unlike I say, private equity, which tends to take a majority position, you often have founders or family business owners that want to exit. So I think, to me, that's also very exciting. And then I think in terms of the portfolio, we have over 90 companies in our portfolio, so we do get access to that breadth and depth. So for me, it is that ability to channel into my curiosity to meet a lot of different companies, learn about different business models.
Karen
Given we have an agnostic mandate in terms of industry, that creates a job environment for me where it's about continuous learning. And I think that really gets me out of bed. So there's always a lot of variety.
Camilla
And I love that. So a couple of words that I've picked out in that last little bit was curiosity and continuous learning. And we talk about this a lot in shares, not shoes, because you need to be interested in others, but also interesting yourself. And putting those two together, I think critical attributes to be in the financial services industry, you know, just because you want to, you want to find out things about the companies you're investing in or the, you know, all the projects or whatever it is, and you want to know what makes people tick. And you, you also want growth yourself. And I love your answer on that. I think that's. I think that's fabulous. My next question is, did you know it was always finance for you? Was it sort of love at first sight or was it love over a longer glance?
Karen
I like the way, how you frame that.
Camilla
Well, because it's my last name, I've got to work it in somehow.
Karen
Yeah. So, yes, I mean, I think. I mean, to find a job that I think is sustainable for me personally, it needs to be something that I think I love. And I can honestly, hand on heart say that I do love the work that I do right now because when I'm in my job, I don't actually feel like I'm working. So I think that, and that's the best part. So that whole meeting people and curiosity around, learning about other businesses, I'm happy to sort of do that, even sort of outside hours. So I think that's quite sort of outside work hours. So I think that's quite telling. I think, for me, I studied commerce law at Sydney University and I think that combined degree gave me sort of maximum career opportunities. There was many parts that I could go down. I could go down law, I could go down finance, and I actually almost went down the path of being like a lawyer. Yeah, when I. Yeah, when I first started my career. But I was actually drawn to the fact that with finance I could draw on both my legal as well as commerce skill sets.
Karen
And I think it's also very hard to figure out what you want to do sort of when you're that sort of early twenties. So I think it is a bit of a discovery process for me. I think what I did enjoy, I think early on, is that in my first job was in investment banking with JP Morgan and I was actually striped with the technology team. So from that early experience, I loved working with tech companies and most of my companies were private companies looking to ipo.
Camilla
Yeah. Right. So then that sort of absolutely dovetails into what you do today. Even though it was absolutely, I'm not going to say how, how many years ago it was, but, you know, was a reasonable amount of time ago. So, yeah, the skill set you had on the ground on your first job is still, you know, reaping rewards today.
Karen
Yeah. And I think that's the thing to really think about, like I think a lot of skills are, like, transferable, but there is also that apprenticeship element of, you know, you really need to kind of see a lot and do a lot to, I guess, build up that experience base. And I think investing is a bit like that too. I think the first company, and you would probably have that same experience. Right. Like the first company that you meet as an angel investor, when the founder is selling you the story, it all sounds very exciting, but then I think the more sort of companies that you meet, then, you know, you'll be able to sort of figure out, like, what's good and what's not bad. Just the same as I think if you were house hunting. Right, like, I think you. You'd get a better sense of, you know, which street is a good street, you know, what house, you know, is a good house. And where would be a good place to, if it's an investment property, where would be good for a return. And you'd also be, depending on what you're looking for, then different attributes would sort of be more front and centre.
Camilla
Exactly. And that sort of dove sales perfectly into my next question, which is actually about venture cap right now and the valuations and all that sort of stuff, what are your thoughts on where the market is in this space today, where it was maybe compared to where it was maybe three years ago versus where it was 18 months ago? Because there's been a lot of change.
Karen
Definitely a lot of change. So I think I've, you know, rewind back to actually 2020. Just as we went into lockdown during COVID I think it really felt like the world was crashing down on us and there was an unprecedented period where everyone went hands down and just tried to take stock of what was going on, because there was obviously a real impact to. To businesses when people were locked down and unable to go to work. But I think what we've seen is a lot of resilience, and companies found ways to cut costs, partially stand down workforces and find ways to survive. And then you went into 2021. While there was on and off lockdowns, the stock market was booming, interest rates were at all time low, and you had a real growth in that and frothiness in the venture capital industry. So I think that period is now behind us. Now we've had, like, you know, many successive rate rises. There's a lot more geopolitical tension in the world, and the macro environment continues to be uncertain. And I think in this environment, there's clearly like a real correlation between public market valuations and private valuations and there is, there tends to be a lag, but the private markets has, you know, started to see corrections.
Karen
I think we've been sort of fortunate here in Australia, where I think some of the corrections haven't been as steep as globally.
Camilla
That's quite true, yeah.
Karen
And you would have seen that too, right? I think in some of the more larger, you know, unicorns in Australia, where they have seen a bit of a price correction, but nowhere near what's happened, 70, 80% offshore. But I think. I think when I talk to resilience, I think the industry is very resilient still. I think there's a very strong ecosystem here in Australia. A lot of collaboration from the early stage all the way through to late stage, as well as amongst all the parties. And I think it's a natural for the market to really be really for the market to kind of see a bit more consolidation. So there will be companies that fail, but there will still be winners that really emerge out of this industry. So I think what you'll find is you'll have some companies that will grow into their valuation. You've got companies that will experience a down round, which will be a lower valuation, and then you've got a situation now where it is much more attractive to be investing because the valuations are at a much more sustainable and realistic level.
Camilla
Yeah, I think that's right. And as we know, economy and businesses go in a cycle, and this just happens to be an interesting point of the cycle where investors such as yourself have a little bit more control and power in the discussion of capital allocation. Because you're getting actually better value for your money.
Karen
Exactly. So I think it is a good time and I think I'm not really seeing a slowdown in innovation. So from what I'm also hearing at the early stage, lots of companies still continue to be formed and it's a good time to be starting companies because there's a lot of talent available.
Camilla
Yeah, that's right. Because, I mean, you're right, the big guys have let, you know, made a whole bunch of people redundant, and that just gives an opportunity for that talent to go, hey, well, I've really got this cracking idea. I'm just going to go and do it myself and see how we go. And then there's new burgeoning opportunities to invest in coming up, which I quietly excited about as well. Now, we have a few things in common, and we've already talked about one, but one we referred to earlier on, and I'd really like to talk about the Bloomberg new Voices programme that both of us participated in at obviously different times. But what did you. Can you tell everyone a little bit about this programme and why it made such an impact on you? And, like, I can give my two cent as well because I know how, you know, how much of an impact it's had on me. But obviously we went to New York together for a Bloomberg new voices event and conference and that was super exciting. So. And you were on the panel, which I was very proud of you for.
Camilla
So do you want to tell us a little bit about the programme and why it's, you know, why you've had success from it?
Karen
Well, firstly, I'd like to thank you for referring me to the programme. It was a real eye opener and I think a really great opportunity to, I guess, join a network of other females as well as other unrepresented voices across the globe. And I think it's a really great initiative because Bloomberg is looking to increase the diversity of expert voices on their programming and I think they found that there hasn't been sufficient female or underrepresented sort of representation on their programming. And I think since they launched a programme in 2018, they've had three times the female representation on Bloomberg TV.
Camilla
They've made such a difference, such a difference, which is super exciting.
Karen
Which is super exciting, because I think, which I've also learned just from my experience in sort of recruiting new talent and especially females looking to join the finance industry, they really are looking for representation and role models, so if they don't see it, then they don't think that they could do the same job. So I think it's really important to be able to show that there are females who can be experts.
Camilla
Yeah, absolutely. So just a bit of background. The new voices programme essentially puts talent through sort of going to, say, a boot camp on media and thinking on the spot. And really, I don't know how it made you feel, but while I was in the throes of it made me feel somewhat uncomfortable because, you know, you'd be chatting about, like, in my instance, I was chatting about ETF's and blah, blah, and then all of a sudden you get thrown in a question on interest rates or politics or something like that, and you go, well, hang on, that's not my. That's not my skill set, but sure, I can have an opinion on that too. And then it's just opened so many doors for me, which has been great, you know, panels and podcasts and, you know, leadership opportunities. It's been. It's been wonderful. I'm glad you've had a good time, too.
Karen
You know what I really enjoyed about the Bloomberg new Voices event? We went to New York and I think it really was also the fact that it was tied to the Bloomberg invest conference, which actually brought together some of the biggest names in finance, such as Ray Dalio, Stan Druckenmiller. I think being able to sit there and hear their views, I think it really also really broadened my knowledge base because they really talked about the key investment themes. So it really brought together the intersection of macro as well as the micro as to exactly what they were doing with some of the key investment themes. I think they were talking about investing in sports and sports teams. So these are things that we don't really see here in Australia.
Camilla
No, I agree. And also, I mean, one thing that I loved is that going to that conference and being at that event was feeling the pulse on the ground, because it's very different necessarily than Australia. Very different to say, for example, London or Frankfurt or Hong Kong. And so just, just getting that pulse from leaders who are every day making decisions not only necessarily in finance, but in companies that are, you know, doing things for the economy, I think was great because again, it just sort of pushed me out of my box and made me think about things differently and the way that the globe sort of interacts, rather than, you know, getting me out of my Sydney, Australia bubble, which is not a bad thing, particularly at this time of year. But, yeah, it was great. We had a great time. And as I said, very proud of you for sitting on that panel. My next question is sort of a reflective question. And, you know, I always, I'm quite interested in always in people's answers for these questions because there are multiple of these points. So my question for you is there, is there a moment that sticks in your head as, you know, a turning point or a sort of, you know, sliding doors moment that, in hindsight was a gift to you for your career?
Karen
Yeah, I think for me, I think my last role at Investec was a real sort of turning point in terms of really pushing me into this investment management space. I think it really draw upon all of my prior experience working with private companies. I think it also really was a real great platform for learning and also demonstrated to me the importance of having sort of real strong sponsors in my organisation. That really helped me through a difficult period. So I was there when there was a bit of a turnover in the leadership. And so it gave me an opportunity to lead the team. And so I think it really meant that I, it really pushed me to, I guess, really learn a lot. So I think looking back, it was a really sort of tough period in terms of having to, you know, take over an entire business. But then it provided significant learning opportunities because it really gave me a full view of the, I guess, the types of, you know, what's really needed to run a fund.
Camilla
Yeah.
Karen
It's not just about the front office, not just about the investing. There's business to manage, back office operations, which is just as important.
Camilla
Legal, compliance, everything. And it's funny because growth never comes when it's easy. Right. Growth comes when it's difficult. You never know actually who you are or how the confidence that you can build and the resilience that you have until you get thrown in the deep end and, you know, manage to do a successful job.
Karen
Yeah. And I think you also. I think you would have experienced this too, right. With your experience at e invest. I'm sure there was definitely elements of being uncomfortable. Feeling a little bit uncomfortable, I think, is where you want to be because I think that's what pushes you to, I guess, try harder. Yeah, I mean, there's a way to kind of get through. I'm not saying that there's never a piece of cake in, I guess, the, in our industry, but I think it's when things go wrong or when things are, or you don't really know what you're doing at some point, then you, or you think you don't know what you're doing, then I think that sort of really kind of drives well for me. It drives me forward.
Camilla
Yeah. Yeah. And sitting back and reflecting on that period of time, the growth is amazing, right? It's absolutely amazing. My next question I asked everybody, and I just love the answers because everyone has a different answer. So what has been the most valuable piece of advice you've been given and why did it resonate with you?
Karen
I think because I started my experience in investment banking. I think I was always told to have that service sort of mindset. Think about what you can do for someone or for the organisation versus what can the organisation do for you. I think having that service mentality has meant then that I'm on top of my game in terms of really anticipating and thinking about what experience that I'm providing to the people around me. And I think that's actually really important because in the investing world we are also building relationships. So it's important to be polite to companies that you deal with and also be respectful of their time. And give them a quick no if possible, and not leave people hanging. So I think having that service mentality just means that I have quite a anticipation kind of mindset. So I think, think a few steps forward, and that sort of served me well.
Camilla
Yeah, absolutely. And we talk about finance being a people and relationship industry. We also, you know, you never know who your next boss or, you know, person who is, you know, reporting to you is going to be. You don't know where the next referral for the company that you might be investing in is going to be. So treating everybody with that service mentality is a great, great piece of advice. So thank you very much for that. Now we're at the point in time which is the super fun part, which I really love, not to say that the last 30 minutes wasn't super fun, but that time where I do a couple of quick fire questions where you got to throw out the first thing that comes into your mind. Are you ready for this? Do you know what you're in for?
Karen
I'll give it a go.
Camilla
Are you sure?
Karen
I'll just pass if I.
Camilla
You can't pass. That's the problem. There's no buzzer that can go pass. No, no, no. Okay. You ready?
Karen
Yeah. Okay.
Camilla
Okay. How would your friends describe you?
Karen
My friends would say I'm approachable and loyal.
Camilla
Great. And that's very. I can attest to that. What is the most important money lesson you've learned?
Karen
I think the biggest lesson I've learned would be to spend within the means.
Camilla
Yep. That's a good.
Karen
And also invest for the future.
Camilla
Oh, that's two very good ones. Two very good ones. The one piece of advice I'd tell my 20 year old self is I.
Karen
Think, just go for it and not second guess yourself.
Camilla
Fabulous. What movie do you absolutely love? That's totally embarrassing to admit.
Karen
I actually really like Charlie and the chocolate factory.
Camilla
Oh, do you?
Karen
Yeah. I don't know what it is, but it's the original one.
Camilla
Yeah.
Karen
It just really is a. I think it's called Charlie and the chocolate Factory. Yeah, but the one with Jane Hackman, I think it's, it's kind of, like, whimsical but also creepy at the same time.
Camilla
Totally creepy. There's a new one out, too, at the moment.
Karen
Is that Wonka?
Camilla
Wonka? Mm hmm.
Karen
Yeah, I'll have to. I don't think he'll live up to the original.
Camilla
I think it's. No, it's definitely never going to live up to the original, but I think it's a musical, which is totally random and totally not up my alley, but.
Karen
Okay, that's random.
Camilla
Next question. My biggest, hairiest personal goal is, I.
Karen
Think my biggest goal would be to, I guess, create some sort of impact in the investment industry, whether it's to inspire the next generation of young people to want to be part of this industry and or to, I guess, find some great companies, like tobacco, which would create, you know, create sort of like, a broader impact to society in the sense that, you know, companies that I back would be able to, you know, create more jobs for people, but then also, you know, make people's lives easier if it's a solution that resonates with the broader masses.
Camilla
Yeah. Rather than a thing. It's a real, you know, legacy piece.
Karen
Yeah, yeah.
Camilla
If you had to invite anyone alive or dead, to dinner, who would it be and why?
Karen
I would pick Elon Musk.
Camilla
Interesting.
Karen
I'm really fascinated, I guess, by. I think, the. I guess, by his work ethic as well as, I guess, the vision that he has. If I can add a second person, I would add Bob Iger to the mix.
Camilla
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, both of them are amazing. I mean, Elon Musk, like, the ability to think that far in the future and then execute no matter what, is unbelievable. Like, I just don't know how we can do that. I like putting the craziness to the side, but I think it's sort of got to be crazy to be able to do that.
Karen
Yes. And I think also to have that sort of view about a multi planetary world. So it'd be interesting to, you know, he's really thinking far ahead.
Camilla
So far ahead. How can we keep up? Have to. Have to invite him to dinner. That's what we have to do. If I wasn't doing this job, I'd be a.
Karen
I'd be, like, an artist or something. I think I'd do something completely different and be in the creative industry.
Camilla
Yeah. Right. Yeah. I'd like to pick apart that one at another time. Tell me something that no one else knows about you.
Karen
All right. That one. I don't think there's anything that nobody knows about me, actually.
Camilla
Nothing. You're an open book.
Karen
I'd say I'm pretty open book.
Camilla
You just have to ask me, note to self, next time on my bucket.
Karen
List is I'd love to just travel to somewhere that I haven't been before. So I think the Silk Road would be pretty amazing the whole way through.
Camilla
To Turkey, to China.
Karen
Yeah. That'd be really cool to do the whole. The whole route and see and learn about the history as well.
Camilla
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, the centuries old route, it's amazing.
Karen
Amazing.
Camilla
And the last question I have is in three words. Tell me why you love finance as your career.
Karen
Okay, three words for why I love finance. I think it's a gateway. I'll make it four. No one can ever say it's a gateway for, I guess, personal and professional opportunity would be my take on finance.
Camilla
Yeah, great. And I think that will spur a whole bunch of people on, which is so true. I mean, think about the opportunities. I mean, I reflect on that. Opportunities that have been offered to me in the last 20 something years, given the career and industry that I'm in. It's just amazing. So we've come to the end and thank you so, so very much for giving us such a great insight on what you do in the pre IPO growth stage, VC, and how you look at companies. And your take on the world currently stands from evaluations perspective. But also, Karen, so much. Thank you for what did I take away? The curiosity and the lifelong learning. It's absolutely critical. And if I could read more, I think podcasts is my way of for my learning at the moment, but if I could read more, I'd love to do that as well. But thank you for being open and honest and transparent, and we really appreciate you coming on chez knot shoes.
Karen
No, thanks so much. Really great to chat to you. It was really fun. Thank you so much.
Camilla
You'll have to come back. I don't bite. You know that.
Karen
Okay, I'll wait for the next invitation. Thank you.
Camilla
Thanks, Karen.
Karen
All right, thanks so much.
Camilla
You know the information that is in this part podcast. We always talk about finance in this podcast, but it's not financial advice. It's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner or a broker and work out your own personal circumstances with that. But this is all about careers advice and how finance will be a fabulous career for.