This week in episode 3 of the season we meet Sabina.
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Sabina
I believe things need to be developed at the early stage. Whether it is a business, whether it's a change in society, it has to be done at an early stage.
Camilla
Welcome everyone back to another episode of Shares, Not Shoes An Insider's Guide to Careers in Finance. I'm your host Camilla Love, founder of F3 future Females in Finance. Shares or Shoes is a podcast whereby I interview some of my favourite people, all with one thing in common. They work in finance. We lift the lid on who they are, how they came into a career in finance, and Ammu, with some knowledge about why a career in finance could be a good fit for you. I will promise that all my guests will share some amazing personal stories, will be open and honest, and will inspire you. So let's go.
Camilla
We are going to journey around the world with today's guests and you will be nothing but astounded. When I first met this amazing woman and heard her story, I couldn't wait to interview her and get to all the nitty gritty. She's inspiring and aspiring. She's been a public equities analyst and has now moved over to the dark side of VC helping the Victorian government commercialise new innovations and technologies through bringing investors, researchers and government together to deliver prosperity to the state. Sabina Ahmed, welcome to Shares Not Shoes.
Sabina
Thank you for having me and providing me this platform.
Camilla
I am so excited to interview you and we've known each other for not very long. Um, but we've we've crossed paths a few times in really wonderful ways. And I cannot wait to tell your story today, as I already said. So, um, give us all the details. I want to know everything. Um, because and, you know, let's start at the beginning because it's a very good place to start. You currently live in Melbourne, Australia, but you have previously lived in London, Pakistan, the US only to name a few. Can you tell me about a little bit about the places that you've been to and your upbringing, and how, how was it that you were able to move around like that when you were so young, and what did it teach you?
Sabina
That's a big question, Camilla, because it's a big story. I'll be very honest. It's a very diverse and.
Camilla
We've only got an hour.
Sabina
I know, I know exactly that's what I was putting my thoughts together, that how we explain this whole thing and just really appreciate and make people appreciate my journey. So of course, I'll just start from the beginning. So it's a funny story because I'm actually born Australian. I was born in Sydney. I was, even though I never studied here or anything. I was born here. My roots are from here. My parents were in Sydney and I was born here. And when I was five, we moved to Saudi Arabia. So a majority of my childhood, you know, young childhood have been in Saudi. I did my schooling there till my middle school. So the story is funny because my sisters wanted to become doctors, and there's a huge difference between me and my sisters are going to keep saying that, but it's a huge difference. So they wanted to be doctors, and the amazing platform that is available in Pakistan is the go to for all medical students. So then we decided, my mother decided that I think as being a mother of three daughters, she felt like, let's move to Pakistan and just start building our home over there.
Sabina
So as the youngest in the family, I had no choice, I had to yeah, you.
Camilla
Just passed along.
Sabina
I just I was like a bag, like a baggage for everyone just to scare you everywhere. So then I moved to Pakistan and I started my middle school there, like, I think six seventh graders. Middle school. Yeah. And then I did my high schooling there, and I did my bachelor's in Pakistan. But I think the person that I am, because I was always travelling, my sisters got married and then they moved to the US, so I was always travelling to them. I stayed with them 3 or 4 months and stuff and I just, I just love the whole vibe of travelling and I'm just like, I don't want to do my masters in Pakistan, I want to go somewhere else. So it was just the timeline that I had. I couldn't come to Australia because of the difference in the educational year that you guys have here. Um, my option was London or the US. I didn't get anywhere in the US. That story, my grades were not up to the mark.
Sabina
Um, the only phrase that accepted me was London, so I decided to. It's not a bad.
Camilla
City to exactly. Not a bad city to the uni.
Sabina
And I also got a scholarship to Queen Mary, University of London. First, I was planning to go somewhere else for business school, but then when Queen Mary gave me their scholarship, I'm just like, why not? It is expensive post-grad. So I was like, well, why not just go and do it at Queen Mary? So that's when I landed in, um, London. I stayed there for approximately two years. And then again, that trigger inside me, that okay, let's go to the age of having. And then I moved back to Pakistan, even though I was doing an internship in Bloomberg, and I was hopeful that I will get a role over there, but I think it was just the person I am and the knowledge that I had bring from travelling so much and living in so many cities. I really wanted to make a difference in Pakistan because at the end of the day, Pakistan gave me a lot when it was my education, my training and the way I would had that connexion with family over there.
Sabina
And there's a very big story about a family, which I really do want to share. Camilla today. Sure. Um, the reason why I felt like I needed to go back to Pakistan was 100% my grandfather. My grandfather played a huge role to what I am today. I think if you ask my friends and my cousins, my family, nobody ever thought I was going to finance. I was a huge creative person. I love dancing, I'm artist, I love doing fine arts. I always used to do a watercolour painting. Oil painting. I was a horrible person. Money came to education. I couldn't graduate from 8 to 9 grade because I was so bad in maths, and I didn't know what to do with me. My sisters were like I was an embarrassment for my sister. They are becoming like these hippy doctors and I couldn't even do fractions. So it was just such a bad time in my life that I couldn't even, like, do mental maths. It was literally so embarrassing for my family.
Sabina
But then like when I came into my bachelors, I as I told you, I was in Saudi. So my dad was still working in Saudi Arabia when my sisters and my mum moved to Pakistan. So my mum was back and forth going a lot. So when I did my I, when I, um, got my education certificate, like I was in my bachelor's. So when I got an admission over there, my cousins were also in Pakistan. So my mom's like, okay, why don't I go back to your dad and you can stay with your grandfather and your cousins. You're all going in the same university. It can be like a full bus of just our family going to the university, like the best thing. And I'm like, yeah, because I was so close to my cousins. But that point kameelah my grandfather because I think he was a pioneer of the capital market in Pakistan. He was an advisor to IMF for Pakistan. He was one of the directors for the state Bank of Pakistan, that is the central Bank of Pakistan.
Sabina
And he hold a very big position for the Karachi stock market. That is the main Pakistan stock market right now. He had like the conversations I would have with him were just so enriched with knowledge. And he loved because I'm a huge, talkative person and he loved talking to me about his career, his journey and everything that he has done. And he wanted his, um, children to do so, but obviously all their children went into business. That's a very big tradition in Pakistan. You build your business, you own your family businesses, and you tend not to do a corporate sort of job. So he really wanted me to do that, and he really wanted me to be in the world of finance, because everyone in Pakistan gets a bit scared when it comes to the stock market. It's just that culture norm that you have over there that is a very male dominated and a very dirty sort of industry. So like people from nice, I would say like high culture families don't really go to the stock market for I don't know what reason, even though it was so beautiful, but it's just that.
Sabina
Not that culture thing, that that thing that it was just there in Pakistan that you don't do the dirty jobs. So my grandfather was not part of that story. He really wanted me to do something in finance. So it was a funny thing that I remember. It was just that click that happened that one day my grandfather was writing his checks and he couldn't, like, cool the pen properly. And he was just like, oh, Sabina, can you do it for me? And then he was watching me do. And he's like, okay, now balance my chequebook. And that was like, okay, what do I do? Because my math was so bad and he knew my master. But he's like, no, you have a calculator, do it. I took four hours to balance a chequebook, but it was fun. Like, it was so fun, like, you know, matching the dividends to the dividend paper coming because Pakistan, everything is very raw at that time everything was paper.
Sabina
Nothing was online. Everything. You're holding the shares in your hand and stuff. So it was just so beautiful that time that I was that four hours changed my life, because the way my grandfather had confidence in me that I can do it was just game changer. And from that point onwards, I was just like, I have to do. I have to do something for the like. My grandfather and I want to make his dream come true that I go into the stock market and make a difference. And I was like, I have to do my masters in finance. And then I went to London. I did my asset management in finance, and I picked up courses like behavioural finance and stock, um, C plus plus portfolio. Like I was the only girl sitting in the whole room. There were 50 students and I was the only female sitting in their C plus plus portfolio course. And I'm just like, it doesn't matter. My grandfather was the same, so why not me?
Camilla
So you told me when we first met that you were the first female portfolio manager in Pakistan. Is that.
Sabina
That's true? That is true 100% in the asset management space. Definitely. I was one of the first female and I would say the youngest of portfolio managers at that.
Camilla
Time giving that opportunity in that type of society to so, you know, really you know, having your grandfather was your backer. And I know that you had other backers as well. So, you know, tell me a little bit about why, you know, that mentorship into such a burgeoning capital market in a, you know, in a country like Pakistan, what did that really mean for you?
Sabina
Yeah, definitely. I agree with that. Like it's a very conservative society. And the reason coming back was the support I had from my grandfather. I started the career as a research analyst, um, for like a family office, um, at Pakistan, where we were looking at equities and doing because we didn't have, you know, like you guys over here at Bloomberg, FactSet and all these big, big systems supporting you to build those financial models. In Pakistan, we didn't have that depth during the 20 1314. When I came back, there wasn't much of a Bloomberg platform. We were really sitting and punching in data into Excel and building the models from scratch. And that really just I just love the practical application. Like I'm building the model, I see the price, I calculate the price, and I see it in a light market. That connexion was just amazing. The thing I would definitely lagging was a role model. As I said, it was a very, very male dominated industry.
Sabina
Like I would say 90% of the industry were male. Very few females will be sitting in the leadership level or even the board level. Everyone was either in the middle office or the back office or let's say marketing. They were more focused on that rather than bringing female to the front and side of portfolio management. There was only one woman that I discovered was the key to could be my role model. That was Maheen Rahman. She had such an amazing profile. She was both internationally and domestically recognised, and because of that, she was on the 40, I think under 30 female CEOs in the subcontinent. And she came in Forbes magazine, she had an interview with BBC. So it was just like, oh, she could be like my role model because there were no other females to look up to. And it was very sad that there weren't many brought to the front end because there were amazing women that I were working with that were never put forward. But it's just Maheen Rahman had that angle.
Sabina
She had that platform to leverage herself in that space. And it's a funny story, Kamala, because I wouldn't say I stalked her, but I was literally trying.
Camilla
To make nothing better than stalking.
Sabina
Stalking. It was just so funny because I applied for so many roles. It was all for the investment. There are huge asset managers in Pakistan. They manage if I convert it around. Yeah, around 700 million AUD at the moment they are managing and different asset classes from fixed income, not private market, but definitely all on the listed side. So it was a big platform and she was the CEO of that platform. And just getting to her was a big obstacle because she was very shielded. So it was funny because I applied for so many roles, I applied for an E role to be her executive secretary. I applied for that role and then the air called me.
Camilla
Sometimes you've just got to do it right.
Sabina
I just got I just needed to meet her. I would do anything to meet her. I saw her speaking in so many events. And then I should really kill me that you find out that I did that.
Camilla
But you'll have to send in the podcast.
Sabina
Yeah. Um, I applied for the role, and the air girl called me that. Are you sure you're applying for this or. You're very overqualified? Do you know what the role is, or did you click on something else? I'm like, no, no, I want to be the air for my environment. And she's like, yeah, but you're way overqualified, so we won't put your CV forward. I'm like, that's fine, it doesn't matter. Then a finance back office role came. I applied for that also. And then the HR girl called me again. She's like sobbing. I think you're not understanding that you're a bit overqualified for being a just a tax accountant. Punching numbers. You don't take.
Camilla
No for an answer.
Sabina
I didn't I didn't I didn't take no for an answer. And then again, after three months a research analyst position came. And then the HR girl had changed by then. And then they gave me a call there like, no, we are looking for a male research analyst. And that just triggered me. And I'm just like, you have a female CEO and you're just saying we're looking for a male research analyst. There's already a lot of problem in the industry, and I just it just wasn't sitting well.
Camilla
Why can't I do it? Yeah.
Sabina
And I was just like, is there something that is special about the male? Maybe it's like maybe it's a CFA or something. They're like, no, because we just want a male one. Because the HR girl wasn't able to say that. The trading room is full of men. And the vast research analyst left because of this reason, because she felt uncomfortable. She couldn't. She wasn't able to say this to me. So I'm just like, okay, fine, like whatever. And then after six months, a portfolio manager position came and I'm like, I don't care. I'm applying again, I don't care.
Camilla
And then.
Sabina
I apply for the.
Camilla
Six seventh time. Lucky. Yeah, exactly. And I'm just.
Sabina
Like, I just need to meet her. Like I met her at events and stuff. Obviously she was surrounded by so many people, so I didn't get that one on one with her. and it was just because she was a senior. And sitting at that platform is just the society norm that you can't like directly go up and speak to her. You have to go through a connexion or something like that to speak to Maheen. But then when I got the portfolio manager position, the CIO called me. He's like, um, you've been applying for a lot of roles at Alpha Investments and stuff. I'm like, yeah, I have. And he's just like, just got to meet me. Forget forget about the role and just gonna make me. And then when I met Nabeel, he was an amazing person. I think he was one of the most progressive men I've ever met in my career. And whatever I am today, I do owe it to him, definitely, but I owe 90% of it to him.
Sabina
He literally mould me to become what I am today. He trained me so well and he never like, you know, said, oh, I'm a female and there's a male portfolio manager. I'm not gonna I'm gonna teach you differently. He never did that. He treated me like an equal in the interview. He shook my hand. That's not a very normal norm in Pakistan. He came up to my hand. He sat down next to me, and he interviewed me like, just without any care that I'm a female, like I'm from London or whatever. And I was like, getting so conscious. Oh my God. Like, you know, he's like being very aggressive. But he wasn't. He was just treating me as an equal. And then I was just like, I want to work with Maheen, but I want to work with this man also.
Camilla
So looking back on that time and comparing it to now has has things changed? Not necessarily for you, but in, in Pakistan, in the industry it's.
Sabina
Changed a lot. Yeah. Great change significantly a lot because Kamila now 60% like 65% of the population in Pakistan is under 35 and a good 50% of the majority are females. So even if the top end didn't have a choice, but when the type of CV's and everything you're getting, you don't have a choice, you have to do the change. Now you have to accept being female coming into the workforce. And at that time, when I was the first portfolio manager, it was very welcoming the brokers, the traders, because Pakistan was very like underdeveloped, very unstructured. So again, we didn't have systems. I got talking to brokers on the phone and doing my trades. They were very welcoming, they were very happy. And they're very encouraging that, you know, no, it's good. Like, you know, um, talk to us. Obviously they would get a bit cautious because it was the first for all of us, but they were very open to it. And they and you can sense that they want people to come in, but it's just a top.
Sabina
And the young boomers, I would say generation were just that grey haired industry that were just really holding everyone back. And the younger when the millennials came into the forefront, they're just like, no, we need females, we need that diversity angle because they're big part of the workforce. And to be honest, they were in the universities with all of us like we were with the boys and stuff, and they're like, if we don't have that chunk coming into the workforce, it's not going to really develop Pakistan to the pathway that we want it to. And at that time, Pakistan was moving from a frontier status to an emerging market status in 2017. So they really needed that sort of workforce coming into the market. When you're matching with like India, Indonesia and all of these huge markets, you don't have a choice. You need that diversity. You need that huge workforce sitting with you. So it's really, really developed now.
Camilla
Yeah. And I'm and I'm glad that it has changed. And I'm also glad that you were you were there to be a role model for somebody else too. Right. So yes, 100%. It's all about passing, you know, passing it down and pulling people up the ladder as well and all that.
Sabina
I jumped up the ladder again, and I just love that part, because I always saw Maheen as my role model, and I felt so good, like when I came to, um, Australia and LinkedIn, you know, you get connect with the alumni of your university and they're like, oh, in university, the teachers talk about you. And I'm like, really? Oh my God, that's so amazing. And I was just like, that's so embarrassing. Yeah. And I'm famous like, and she's. And the girls were like, then you're You're like a role model for us. That you were the first female portfolio manager in the asset management space and the stock market space, like, not even on the banking or the financial investment banking side, but on the forefront of like trading with brokers and then like you still call and you talk to brokers, they always remember you that you never like acted like that. Oh no, I'm a girl, so be nice to me. You were like as aggressive as a like on the forefront when you're trading as aggressive and, like, making decisions and stuff.
Sabina
And I was just like, that's so amazing that I could create that road a little bit, put a little bit of that tarp at for the road to be built towards that direction. And I'm just like it was, it was so like amazing to have that.
Camilla
I'm really, really pleased for you on that because that's, you know, that's real trailblazing stuff. Now fast forward a little bit and now you've turned up in Australia and currently you work at Breakthrough Victoria. Can you give us a little bit about what they do and then what you do there?
Sabina
I've been, I think still under a year that I've joined Breakthrough Victoria. So um, I'm the director portfolio construction over there. I'll give you a little bit background about Breakthrough Victoria, because it's a very unique sort of, um, private equity fund that we manage. So it's a 2 billion global innovation fund, um, state owned. So it's very, very focused on the state of Victoria. So we are basically investing in different investment stages from pre-seed to, um, later stage across different metrics. And the key part of my role at Breakthrough Victoria is developing the portfolio construction framework by making sure that the financial and the impact objectives are being met. So we're also an impact fund. So we're still in the process of becoming an impact fund, but we are going towards that direction. It's a very unique sort of a thing about breakthrough that it's not that typical private equity close and portfolio. It's an open end. We invest across different stages. We even invest in Melbourne June, Victorian universities and they're pre-seed accelerators.
Sabina
So it's a very unique sort of a setup that we have at breakthrough.
Camilla
And so why what I mean you've seen all spectrums of listed and unlisted equity, right. So you're you've been enlisted. You're now in the unlisted saying what what do you like about each side of the spectrum? What and what attracted you to move to into VC, especially being part of pretty much the founding team of Breakthrough Victoria?
Sabina
Yeah, I think a big question, because I've gotten that a lot when I'm even sitting in meetings, um, because of my background from the listed side. So I'll do it like a broken list.
Camilla
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Sabina
Absolutely. 100%. Because that's I lost time doing things that way. Um, so on the list this side, the biggest pro I feel for myself is the thrill that you get with the stock market is, especially for me, like you're seeing a live market. You're seeing your work being traded in a live sort of a setup. You see pricing coming through, you see volumes there, trade there, huge announcements coming and it's impacting the stock price. It's a full like you know what you see in movies. That vibe that you get, you just love it. And if you're like I'm a very big adrenaline junkie. So if you love that sort of a rush, the stock market is the way to go. The negative is the like. It's some of what taken from the positive that is sometimes gets overwhelming, sometimes it gets a bit tiring, and sometimes you just lose focus because you're so in and the short.
Camilla
Termism of it.
Sabina
And you're just so lost in that thrill in that rush. It's like a roller coaster ride, and in the end, you're just okay. I think I need to sit down and relax and stuff like that. But that's what I felt with the ten, because 12, let's say 12 years or ten years, 12 years I was in the stock market. Emerging market, frontier market, now the developed market. So it was just that rush and thrill that I was getting. The biggest reason why I shifted to the unlisted side was when I was a you at tickle. They are like an ethical investor in the stock markets and they do ethical investing and stuff like that. I was with the ESG team one time in a meeting, and we were talking about like an oil and gas company and they're like, yeah, we're still even though we're like a sustainable fund, we invest in oil and gas because we want to have a seat on the table. That just didn't sit well with me, because you can't make a difference to a business that is 100% coming from oil and gas.
Sabina
Like, how will you change our business model? Like what will you do to go with either they're going to make a huge investment in renewable or something like that. Then it could be like, yeah, now their revenue from 200 is changing 5050. And I just felt like, where can I bring that change? Being the person and a pillar of diversity and change and challenges, I'm like, what can that happen? So I was just doing my own research. Being the research junkie and data person I am, I looked at a lot of private equity funds in the US and in the UK that were making an impact to different companies from early stage like. I believe things need to be developed at the early stage, whether it is a business, whether it's a change in society, it has to be done at an early stage. So I would just like, oh, so that mean the VC space has said the private equity space has that where I can make an impact, where I can use the skills and stuff from the listed I'd like.
Sabina
I know the end. I can bring the small company to that end, but giving them a different and positive pathway. So I would just like where can I use this knowledge? And that's where the story of breakthrough comes through, because I think breakthrough is only been two years that they've been set up. And I knew Sally, she is a huge person in the impact and ethics space. I've seen her speak in so many events and stuff. The second morning I was talking to. I'm just joking. So it was.
Camilla
No use talking this one too.
Sabina
So it was funny because it's the same story, like Sally was the role model in the impact space that I saw. And I was just like, this woman is someone that I really want to work with because she would teach me and bring my knowledge into the light that I want to. And that's why you come in the unlisted side. It's relaxed, but I would say longer hours more. You have to give into it because you don't have that luxury again that you have with systems and all the information being publicly available, everyone's doing the same thing. So you can leverage from each other knowledge. Over here you are building the, let's say the frameworks, you're building the ecosystem. So you have to put more energy, more effort to it. But the most satisfying thing is that you can see the change coming through. Like you can see the work that you're doing is being putting forward in a positive light. I think that's the journey I would say I had with them, they said. And listing X the starting point.
Camilla
Yeah. Yes. And I understand that because my view is that really true impact has to be only made in that unlisted, unlisted space. So just um, I want to know a little bit more about about you and your thoughts really. You know, um, is there anything that keeps you up at night right now? Anything that other than kids? Oh.
Sabina
My son. Yeah. What keeps me up at night? Um, not really. Like, I think I have to be. Everyone do ask me a question. That's in your life. Do you ever feel that there's something that you regret and I don't I know, it's like I just I just feel everything has taught me something. Some career choices have taught me like big mistakes have taught me really big. Some personal choices have taught me really big and stuff like that. So I'm very happy with the decisions that I've made over the last few years in my career and my personal life, and I feel very satisfied. And the culture and the religion I come from, that it's the decision you make. Is God sent like whatever Allah has sent you, mashallah, that you have to believe in that story and you have to accept it. And it's just that satisfaction. I'm just like, yeah, this was meant for me.
Camilla
Can you give us an example? I mean, it might be a bit personal.
Sabina
So no, I have a professional example for sure that I had at as a portfolio manager because as I mentioned at Alpha, I was the first female fund manager, and I've never traded. And so I've never even, like opened the terminal and see that this is how the pricing and bidders have never seen the.
Camilla
Greens and the Reds know.
Sabina
I have seen the Greens and the Reds but never see the bid. And as I was literally googling the first day, what is a big what is an ask? And imagine I'm the portfolio manager. I was so funny because I think it was a week or two in, um, because we were doing a lot of Excel that I mentioned that we didn't have systems and all of that. Me and one of the portfolio manager, we short sold a stock and we didn't have in our portfolio. It was our right share and we couldn't sell it. And because of the Excel, the way was layout, we felt that we do have that 100 years and we can sell it. Thank God it was just oh no. Yeah. And we short sold the stocks the night before. When I came in the morning, everyone was just so like, oh my God, oh my God, what's happening? And I didn't know even what short sales mean to be honest. I'm just like, sure, I sold out what just happened.
Sabina
And the other managers having a panic attack and an anxiety attack and stuff like that. And I think it wasn't that I don't have the panic and anxiety. I was so calm and I called the broken. I'm like, what just happened? And he just like, oh, you short sold share that 100 um, that were not in your books. And I'm just like, okay, can you buy it back? And he's like, I will buy it back off market on that yesterday's price. You just have to pay the double broke down like it's all done. And I put the phone down and everyone's looking at me. Then why did you come 30 minutes late?
Camilla
I'm just saying.
Sabina
This from the panic. And then we will have just done it, and I'm just. But then I was just like, I still not understanding what was occurring. He's just like, if you short sell something, it's a big compliance issue. And I'm like, oh, now I get the panic at that point, not being like, we were all the boys when they were like 7 or 8 boys in the room, and they were me and I was not Bill. So like ten, nine and me, he just went off at me. Kamala, he was so upset at me. He was just like, why weren't you focused and why were you doing that? And he was just so upset with me. And I got really like, you know, upset. The why is he yelling at me like, I'm the only girl. It's so embarrassing. And like, you know, you're the young girl and just coming out of that face. And then I went to the bathroom and I literally started crying.
Sabina
And I was crying and crying and crying. And then I called my husband, and I'm like, I'm coming home. I'm resigning. He's yelled at me so much. And then my husband said, did he yell at the other portfolio manager? I'm like, yeah, he did. He's like, see? He treated you like an equal. Sabina, why did you want him to treat you differently? You always say that, you know, this is you need to treat people equal is all about women and men and all of that. And then it clicked me. He was so right. Like I was regretting the decision I made to be like under him, like the CIO and stuff. But and then it just clicked me that this is why God made me yesterday make that mistake. Because I knew I could have saved myself by just doing that extra step of double checking. But God made me make that mistake.
Camilla
For a reason.
Sabina
To. So to see that the decision, because I was really struggling that first two weeks because nobody was helping me out, nobody was talking to me. I would be having lunch alone and all of that. And and I was just doubting my decision. And then God, that made they made me make that mistake and made Nabi yell at me to prove that you are. This is the reason you're sitting here. This man is the one that's going to groom you to become the most powerful female portfolio manager, sitting in Pakistan and managing these 13 funds. And that's what happened. One of the portfolio manager resigned and I was only managing three funds. All ten came to me. And because of that training that Nabeel had continuously given me every day, I was able to manage it.
Camilla
And it's funny, you know, just even small mistakes can, you know, roll into a into a big mistake, but also your, your calmness and be able to fix it. And then let's deal with the mistake and another time and then your reflection, the self-reflection that you've had on the growth and the reason why it happens. I mean, life is never a perfect line. Mistakes are natural and you just need to. It's how you deal with them. Um, is is what's best for you. Now, I always ask this question to all my guests. Um, so you ready for this one? And everyone has a different answer, which I absolutely love. Right. And so it's what's the most valuable advice, piece of advice that you've been given? And why was it important at the time that you got it?
Sabina
I think the most valuable advice would be, don't be scared to ask questions, because when I moved to Australia, as an immigrant, you're really scared. You're coming from two poles, Pakistan and then Australia. Such an unstructured sort of setup to a huge structure setup. And the culture, the social norms are so different. So that dynamic person that I was there in Pakistan, I was struggling to have a voice here. So I attended one of the women in finance events and there was, I think, the and the, um, the A and B capital CIO. She, I forgot her name. Shirley, I think is her name. She was sitting on the, um, panel and then I asked her this question that what advice would you give people who are coming from different backgrounds and different cultures? And because it was all about diversity and all of that, and then she just like, don't be scared to ask the question. And I'm just like, yeah, that is so right.
Sabina
Like, why am I losing myself? Why am I not asking question if I feel there's some cultural difference and then I should ask the question and then I would just like, that is so amazing, like, why didn't it? And you just have that fear, you know, like, oh, you're an immigrant and you're like a different like English is your second language. Will they understand my accent? And you're just doubting yourself continuously. And that just clicked that. Um, yeah. I can just ask a question that if I don't understand, nobody's going to judge me. And what am I losing out on?
Camilla
Totally. And that the fact that you asked the question to get that answer, to ask more questions, is just it's pretty ironic. It's pretty funny.
Sabina
I know, it's so ironic. And I was just so happy for myself. And that again, self reflection. I'm like, dude, I need to break through here.
Camilla
Yeah, great. Well, when nearly at the end of our podcast and at the end, every time we, we do a sort of a quick fire round.
Sabina
Before we go into the fireside, um, sort of like a hot seat thing. I would also like to take this moment to thank you, Camilla. I always, always appreciate again as an immigrant coming from a different country, you're so apprehensive from the type of people you're going to meet and you have been another game changer for me. I would say that you were so supportive over the last few years. You have been so encouraging in bringing me towards that path of leadership, and I really want to take this moment to thank you, and I want you to really recognise that the work you do with F3 and these podcasts and everything, you really do make a difference to people's life. And I'm a big example of this, that you're giving me this platform. The whole F3 thing I did with the students that have changed my mindset, that I really want to continue working with young females. I really want to encourage them to come into the world of finance. And it's not what you see in The Big Short and The Wolf of Wall Street and these movies.
Sabina
It's a beautiful place to work. And people like you, Sally, and one of our board, you ethical board directors are mean. You females are like game changers. And so you guys have that vibe that you really bring us forth forward. And I really appreciate the support that you guys have given, especially you, Kamala, thank you so much.
Camilla
Oh, thanks. And that's really sweet of you to say it. And I'm sort of half crying and half blushing at the same time.
Sabina
So let's get to the fireside thing.
Camilla
Okay, okay, okay, okay. I've got to pull myself together first. Hang on. Um, okay. Are you ready to go?
Speaker 3
Yes.
Camilla
Okay. How? And I'm going. The question is, how would your friends describe you? But actually, I'm going to change the question. How would your grandfather describe you?
Sabina
Oh, that's that's really scary for me. I think he would just have one word that I think three words that he's really proud of me. Yeah, he's really proud. I can I can sense his vibe. He's no longer with us, but I know he's so proud of me. I can see him looking at me from heaven and saying, you did it like, this is what I wanted for you.
Camilla
Mhm. That's awesome. That's awesome. I'm tearing up too. Okay. Next question. This is not good. This might be a really long. Great questions. Um what's the most important money lesson you've learned.
Sabina
Sleep over it. Like don't rush into anything. Yeah.
Camilla
Yeah that's a great one. Yeah absolutely. What name your favourite book or podcast?
Sabina
Female leadership I think it's f w that on their podcast with where they, um, communicate with different females in the different leaderships across Australia. And that's really motivating because you get to hear so many different stories from different cultural backgrounds and industries. They're not just focused on finance. It's like marketing. There's like, um, AFL, sports, everything. So you get that whole story and the vibe that girls are driving everywhere.
Camilla
I love that, I love that. What movie do you absolutely love? But it's totally embarrassing to admit.
Sabina
Oh my, he might kill me on this, but Devil Wears Prada is just my go to because mine was Miranda, the mother She's gone.
Camilla
Let's go. And I'll tell you what. I don't think that's embarrassing to admit, because I actually really love that movie, too.
Sabina
And why? He was a total moron. Not like when she was in the workforce. And I'm so scared of her. Yeah.
Camilla
Oh, dear. That's funny. If you could choose your Hogwarts house, which one would it be?
Sabina
Oh, I love Hogwarts. I'm a die hard fan. Even though I'm like 30 plus, I still did a Hogwarts birthday for myself. I should have done it for my son, but I did it for myself, so I'm definitely, I would say a Slytherin.
Camilla
Really? Why? Why are you Slytherin?
Sabina
It's not because of the negativity.
Camilla
No, no, it's.
Sabina
Just because I think the passion that, um. If you see the people in this slithering house, the passion that they had to learn dark magic. Yeah, it's that passion. It's not like I have that dark side to me. It's just that the challenge they had. Because learning those extra dark magic is like a it's a big, let's say, um.
Camilla
What's a huge step up.
Sabina
Is a scare that you're going towards. And it's a fear that a lot of people in the other house didn't want to choose because it was the easy way out. But the Slytherin house never chose that easy way out. They learned that dark, dark magic and the one that was forbidden. And it was. I just love doing forbidden. And I'm just joking. But it's just that vibe that the forbidden is. That is who I am. But I do have a little bit of the Gryffindor side to me, that is, I channelled it in a positive sense, but my core, I would say, is Slytherin.
Camilla
Great, I love it, I love your reason to. If you had to invite anyone alive or dead to dinner, who would it be and why?
Sabina
I would definitely say my grandfather to show that how much I have achieved. And my grandmother also she both of them played a huge part in who I am today. Like I always say this, that my grandmother and my grandfather really grew me personally and professionally.
Camilla
But yeah, that's wonderful. If I wasn't doing this job, I'd be a.
Sabina
Oh, everyone knows this. I would definitely be a choreographer, right? Yeah, yeah.
Camilla
In what and what dance.
Sabina
I think contemporary. I love a contemporary dance like that. Sort of that sort of release that you get when you do contemporary dances and stuff like that. Or I would be totally towards the, um, culture thing. That's that we do a lot of Indian culture do is just that sort of gracefulness and that sort of poise that you get when you're doing that sort of structured dancing. And I would definitely be a choreographer. I would never say no to that.
Camilla
I love that, I love that. Tell me something that no one else knows about you.
Sabina
As you can see, I'm a pretty open book, so it's. Yeah, everyone knows everything. I was saying that I'm a very shy person when it comes to networking. Yeah.
Speaker 3
I serious. Yes, I do a.
Sabina
Full exercise, you know, in the bathroom when I come to the location before I go into the space of never, because I'm very internally very shy and I need to do that sort of boost in the bathrooms or somewhere in private before.
Camilla
We all do that. Yeah. Like I go, I go and shadow box in the bathroom cubicle when no one can see me and then like, flick my hair back, walk out of the cubicle, put my lipstick on and like I'm on ready to go 100%.
Sabina
I need to do that because I am pretty sure I want to. Like when when I go to day-care pick ups anywhere else in the grocery stores. I'm pretty shy to like, talk to people randomly, like.
Speaker 3
Oh.
Camilla
I speak to random people, old people, people in lifts, anyone who listen.
Sabina
That's why you have a vodcast and it's so good.
Camilla
Um, what secret of the universe would you most want to learn how to do?
Sabina
I want to say a secret, but I do want to learn how to write a plane.
Camilla
Yeah, right.
Sabina
Yeah, I really want to get that. Another pilot's licence. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I really want to learn how to, like, ride a plane and stuff, because I just want to be at that height where I can see everything like.
Camilla
And the freedom to go anywhere.
Sabina
Anywhere. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So I want to say it was a secret, but. Yeah.
Camilla
Okay, cool. I'll, uh, maybe we can go on some adventures. Love it. Okay. And the last question complete this sentence. A career in finance is.
Sabina
Full of excitement. Oh, that's.
Camilla
So true and I love it. I love that you've answered that way. And that's a perfect way to end our podcast. And I you know, we you're right. We could have a podcast for probably about four hours getting down into the detail about all the travel and how you what you did and all that sort of stuff. But really, we've only got 40 something minutes. So, um, I absolutely love the fact that you have still pretty much, you know, two mentors don't take no for an answer. I love your, your, um, cultural roots and your family roots. I mean, particularly, you know, how you talk about your grandfather and the importance of him in your, your, your life? Um, I think that's absolutely a testament to what you do. And I love the transition between listed and unlisted. And now the impact that you are having with the investments that you are doing for not only Victoria, but really globally, um, bringing some cracking, great research and beautifully like globally competitive companies with some cracking technology, um, onto, you know, into commercialisation.
Camilla
I love it. So, uh, Sabina, it's been amazing. It always is amazing. Um, and I'm so glad that you we finally. We finally made it on. Cheers. Not shoes.
Sabina
Thank you for having me.
Camilla
You know the information that is in this podcast, we always talk about finance in this podcast, but it's not financial advice. It's actually really careers advice. If you really want financial advice, I recommend that you speak to a financial planner, um, or a broker and work out your own personal circumstances with that. But this is all about careers advice and how finance will be a fabulous career for you.